Registered: Jul 2004
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please delete

Last edited by steve patterson on 11-24-2009 at 03:53 PM

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THE JUDGE DONE THE RIGHT THING HE NEW HIS DOG WASNT TREED ON A TREE SO THE RULE DOENT APLIE IN THIS CASE

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Registered: Jun 2005
Location: Prince Edward Island,Canada
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What difference would the stationary make? Handler knew the dog wasn't treed, if the stationary was applied time run out, walk in there and he wasn't treed nothing would happen if he was indeed on a beaver dam.

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Registered: Jun 2005
Location: Prince Edward Island,Canada
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Yes he should have still applied the stationary BUT it doesn't change a thing if the dog isn't called treed and ain't on a tree.

quote:

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Originally posted by steve patterson
He must be able to see in the dark to no his dog was on a beaver dam

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quote:

---

Originally posted by steve patterson
he was asked to put the staionary on his dog with over 9 mins left in the hunt!! He must be able to see in the dark to no his dog was on a beaver dam

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Registered: Apr 2006
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c should have withdrew a is a me to ,b likes a little beaver

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Steve, first of all, it IS NOT a "stationary" rule. Read the rule. It says nothing about a dog that is stationary. That word stationary isn't even in the UKC rulebook, unlike the PKC rule. Rule 6(q) says "dog obviously treeing (judges decision)." So it is just as Maniac says, it is the judges decision to make. If the judge knows the dog is not treed, he shound not start the 5. And you stated twice yourself that the dog was barking on a beaver dam so apparently, you knew and the judge knew the dog was not treed.
The situation, as you describe it, was handled exactly the way it should have been handled by the judge.

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Registered: Jul 2003
Location: TN
Posts: 519

Treeing and treed are two different things. The rule the way you quoted it says, "dog obviously treeing." A dog can be "treeing" on/in a beaver dam. A dog can also be "treeing" in the ground.

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Registered: Jun 2003
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6 (q) If handler fails to declare treed a dog obviously treeing (Judge's decision) for a period of five minutes. Dog may be declared treed while five is running but not after the five has expired. Judge must verify dog to be at a tree before it can be scratched.
Technically there is no rule in UKC titled the "stationary rule" The rule above is what is used when a dog is obviously treeing. If the judge thinks a dog is treeing he needs to aply this rule, but if the judge thinks the dog is just standing on his head in a hole, dozer pile, beaver dam, whatever he should not use this rule. I am seeing this "Stationary rule" used wrong alot. Some times it seems to be an attemp to force some one to do something they don't want to, and other times it is just lack of understanding or confusion with other KC's rules. It is hard to say if the judge really knew what his dog was doing or was just avoiding aplying 6Q, but that is really beside the point. If your boy question it (not you) then the cast would vote and forces judge to aply 6Q to his dog or not. Ok say that the majority of the cast mad him aply the rule and he does not tree. Hunt is over you all go get his dog and it is not on a tree. Do you think you (your boy) wins? No, read the rules last sentence. As far as your bad taste spit it out. Just keep teaching him the rules and let him do his job. I find that most of the time my boy can handle things much better if I just keep my mouth shut. If he gets hoodwinked I just chalk it up to experince, and try to explain how he should of handled it. If the judge asks me how to handle something or what the rule is when my boy is hunting then I help him with the rule only. We as dads should never get involved in judges decisions. And that is what you had here, a Judges decision.

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Registered: Aug 2009
Location: Michigan
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What Jim and Maniac say. No statinary in UKC.

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Jonathan, it may be two different things in PKC but it isn't in UKC. The difference is that PKC makes no difference between treeing on a beaver dam and treeing on a tree. In PKC they don't even have to be treed, just barking stationary. . UKC specificlly states the dog must be on a tree AND the rule states it is up to the judge to make the decision. If the judge believes the dog is on anything other than a tree, the judge cannot start the 5.

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Registered: Jun 2003
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1. If I had a dollar for everytime someone (including some of the best handlers in the country) told me their dog was in a hole or brush pile or something else and it turned out to be on a tree, I'd have enough money to pay the mortgage this month.

2. If the judge refuses to apply the rule, question it and bring it to a vote. If a majority of the cast votes that the rule should be applied, then the issue should be resolved. Is there anything wrong with this approach to the situation?

3. I have another question, though. Can you put the stationary on a dog when you're walking in to score another tree? Why or why not? If you're not standing still, watching and listening to the dog with the 5 minute "obviously treeing" rule applied to it, how can you tell for certain if it moves or not?

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Registered: Jun 2005
Location: Prince Edward Island,Canada
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quote:

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Originally posted by steve patterson
I no what my dog sounds like when he takes a crap!! but there is no way i could no he was on a beaver dam!!! and i have been hunting a Long Long time!!!!!!!! lol again thanks

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Registered: Aug 2009
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quote:

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Originally posted by jonathan w.
Treeing and treed are two different things. The rule the way you quoted it says, "dog obviously treeing." A dog can be "treeing" on/in a beaver dam. A dog can also be "treeing" in the ground.

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Okay I'll bite what is the difference of treeing, and treed ? LOL

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Registered: Aug 2009
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quote:

---

Originally posted by jonathan w.
Treeing and treed are two different things. The rule the way you quoted it says, "dog obviously treeing." A dog can be "treeing" on/in a beaver dam. A dog can also be "treeing" in the ground.

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Okay I'll bite what is the difference of treeing, and treed ? LOL

Ya he's treeing in there!! Yep he's treed !! Hummm

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Registered: Nov 2005
Location: minnesota
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quote:

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Originally posted by Grant Noeske


3. I have another question, though. Can you put the stationary on a dog when you're walking in to score another tree? Why or why not? If you're not standing still, watching and listening to the dog with the 5 minute "obviously treeing" rule applied to it, how can you tell for certain if it moves or not?

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Steve, the thing that bothers me is that you stated in your first post that your dog was minused on a tree and that cost you the win. And then you go on to say that you lost because the judge wouldn't run the 5 on his dog which you state was barking at a beaver dam. There is no way the judges dog could have been minused under any UKC rule for batking at a beaver dam and so you lost with or without the 5 getting run on that judges dog. But you state in that first post you lost becvause the judge wouldn't start the 5 on his dog. Not true, it would have made no difference. And then you throw in the best part, complaining because your son was on the cast and apparently, you think it was bad for him to see you get cheated except that you didn't get cheated and THAT is the really bad example that was set.

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One last comment. I'm sure Grant has hunted with better and more experienced handlers than I have over the years but I can recall numerous times I have heard a handler state the dog(s) are in the ground or they got one bayed and it has never seemed to matter if that handler had ever heard those dogs before or not. I can't NEVER remember going in and finding them treed instead.

Last edited by on 11-24-2009 at 04:43 AM

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quote:

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Originally posted by JiM
One last comment. I'm sure Grant has hunted with better and more experienced handlers than I have over the years but I can recall numerous times I have heard a handler state the dog(s) are in the ground or they got one bayed and it has never seemed to matter if that handler had ever heard those dogs before or not. I can't NEVER remember going in and finding them treed instead.

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Registered: Apr 2006
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i bet you couldnt hear the coons tail hitting the side of a
tree,like a beavers tail hitting the water.

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When it is all said and done, all you can do is follow the UKC rules. The rule (6q) plainly states that it is a judges decision whether or not to start the 5. If anyone doesn't agree with how the judge decides it, they can ask for a cast vote and if a majority vote that the dog is treeing, the judge would have been required to start the 5. Had he run the 5 and it caught him, his dog would not be scratched because you said yourself the dog was barking in a beaver dam. If he did tree his dog, he wouldn't have been minused because his dog was barking in a place of refuge. No matter how you shape this one, I can't come up with a way to get a win out of it for your son. As for all the "what if's".....nobody ever lost IF they could have gone back and changed..........

Last edited by on 11-24-2009 at 09:25 AM

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quote:

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Originally posted by JiM
When it is all said and done, all you can do is follow the UKC rules. The rule (6q) plainly states that it is a judges decision whether or not to start the 5. If anyone doesn't agree with how the judge decides it, they can ask for a cast vote and if a majority vote that the dog is treeing, the judge would have been required to start the 5. Had he run the 5 and it caught him, his dog would not be scratched because you said yourself the dog was barking in a beaver dam. If he did tree his dog, he wouldn't have been minused because his dog was barking in a place of refuge. No matter how you shape this one, I can't come up with a way to get a win out of it for your son. As for all the "what if's".....nobody ever lost IF they could have gone back and changed..........

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Registered: Dec 2006
Location: Springfield, Ga.
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one can not "tree" a holed up dog. A tree has a trunk, and most have limbs etc...holes are under ground. in this case, could you consider some babbling on that dam? this has happened real time in a cast. Dog A treed, Dog B treed, and Dog C, seems to be split, but when we get to the dogs, C is standing on a log, barking, some 30 yards away. Log is crossing the creek, but there is nothing that resembles a coon, hole, or otherwise. Now the handler did tree this dog, so it was minused. What happens if he just decided to not do anything?

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Registered: Aug 2009
Location: Michigan
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Steve were you with your son, and if so did you guys make some other trees so you could tell if the judges dog sound like he was treed to you from a previous tree ? You may have been able to question it or put up to a vote. It comes down to judges decision. Better luck knowing the rules before going in.

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quote:

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Originally posted by treberta
I think this rule is dumb D U M B!!!!!!! It's just not right that a dog can screw the whole cast by being stationary (obviously not moving) for the whole hunt!!!!!!!!!!!! We all understand that coons run in holes, brush piles. etc.. But it should not matter if the dog on a tree or not!!!!!!!! He should have 5 minutes to tree his dog no matter if the dog is on a tree or not.

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