Registered: Oct 2005
Location: Astoria, Illinois
Posts: 73

Did anyone be sides me think that this years Autumn Oaks was the worst one yet. What is the deal with judging a coonhound like AKC judges would. It is just wrong. coonhunters dont care how correct there dog is just that it can run and tree. I think the judging is getting way out of control. This angel and that angel is for the birds. It is wonderful that people want to show in the conformation show, but leave the coonhound show people alone that dont want to show in the conformation classes. This is a BENCH SHOW! Some people choose not to show there dogs in conformation classes. I for one just want to show my dog, and thats it. And what is the deal with running around the arena. A coonhound needs to move in there own natural way. Do you think that a hound is going to run like that in the woods. NO!!!!! We show people need to start standing up for our selves our we all my as well just start putting our skirts and suits on now, because soon there will not be any benches for us to put our hounds on.

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Registered: Dec 2005
Location: Ohio
Posts: 3063

I did like the fact that the hounds were gaited more this year, but do agree that we need to stick with benchs. After all, it is a 'bench' show.....I didn't really watch too much of the shows on Friday or Saturday, but enjoyed the new classes on Thursday!

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Registered: Mar 2007
Location: SoCal
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quote:

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Originally posted by Natalie Drake
coonhunters dont care how correct there dog is just that it can run and tree. I think the judging is getting way out of control. This angel and that angel is for the birds.

---

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Registered: Dec 2005
Location: Ohio
Posts: 3063

quote:

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Originally posted by EerieEyes
??

I guess I'm one of the very few who doesn't understand how you CAN'T care about conformation... did you listen to anything the judges were saying about how correct structure directly relates to performance..? Personally I think this year's judging was the best yet... I saw a lot of dogs win that looked like what the standards call for rather than just dogs that I've "heard of" all over the place. Can someone please help me understand what you're looking at up on that all-important bench if not balance and structural strength...?

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Registered: Jun 2004
Location: Greenbackville, VA
Posts: 1470

Conformation in coon hounds is no less important in regards to performance than it is in any other type of animal. For instance, a horse with a steep croup (butt) or bad angularity in the rear is not going to move out with as much speed or power as one that is correctly angled. Same goes for coon hounds.

The problem is, you are right. A lot of coon hunters do not care about conformation, because they do not understand it's function or importance. Perhaps they should educate themselves in how a hounds body parts all work together to perform before complaining.

That is where gaiting comes into play... a trained eye can tell when certain body parts are off by watching an animal, regardless of species, come into a ring. A good handler can hide or cover for certain faults by the way they set a dog on the bench. It is extremely difficult if not impossible to hide major flaws when the dog is traveling.

That's not to say that a steep angled, long backed, shallow chested, flat footed dog can't be an awesome hunter. Just means that dog may break down and suffer injuries easier or at an earlier age than one correctly conformed.

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Registered: Apr 2006
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quote:

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Originally posted by Geminite
I think the judges did a good job too, just didn't like the format...

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Last edited by Lee Currens Jr. on 09-07-2009 at 01:01 PM

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Registered: Oct 2005
Location: Astoria, Illinois
Posts: 73

Didnt say Conformation wasnt important, that is not what i was saying. This is a bench show, not a ground show. Gaiting is important, but not when we all are running around the ring like akc, DOGS SHOULD MOVE @ NATURAL A TROT NOT @ DEAD RUN. I love to watch dogs move smooth on the ground @ a nice slow trot
i feel that u can see the dog @ a more natural gait rather than a faster pace.

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Registered: Jun 2003
Location: michigan
Posts: 2573

I guess I'm old school on this but we've always gaited the dogs to see how they move and then stood them on the bench for a hands on look PLUS made them look as good as possible while they're up there. The thing I don't like is a coonhound show that turns into a conformation ring show, we have those for those that prefer that format. I like the benches and the other shows use them I believe for the smaller breeds to bring them up to an easier level for judging which is likely where the coonhound shows got the idea in the beginning. I've always considered bench shows to be more than the ring shows.
While Thurs. show was something different and unique I found it slow and hard to hold my interest. Benching is usually more constant and everyone watching is also judging and trying to pick the winner.
We talk a great deal about longevity but in reality a hound lives a very short life. Some of my winningest hounds in the shows couldn't begin to keep up with many I've had that I didn't consider show material. Heart, drive and all around want to seems to get the job done first in most cases and first is what most of us are looking for when we pay an entry fee. Occasionally you get something that has it all and most of us accept it as a blessing and try to breed more of it with mixed results. In the shows we look for perfect but the ones that don't look perfect aren't worthless cripple's.
The judges this year knew a lot about dogs , more than most of us ever will and their experience and background was a little different than the usual coonhound bench show thus giving a slight edge to some who train for and attend conformation ring shows . I thought they balanced the ring and the bench quite well and some confusion came from us not knowing what they saw in our dogs. Also I for one couldn't hear the sometimes lengthy talks they gave to the bleachers so some of that was lost on us and just lengthened the show unless you were close enough to hear it. Training still brings out the high shine on anything you do and experience always helps. Put that all together and you have a winner.
Another thing about judging hunting dogs, and some do, is all injury's aren't cuts and scratches seen on the outside, some are pulled muscles or just sore places that can throw gaiting off just enough on any given day.

Last edited by Dale Young on 09-07-2009 at 03:53 PM

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Registered: Jun 2003
Location: Weyers Cave Va
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I've thought this for the last few years. The rules also call for a loose leash. When was the last time you saw dog gait with a loose leash? The leash pulled up to the top of their neck/head is NOT loose. If this keeps up the next thing you know they won't even use the bench.

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Registered: Feb 2009
Location: mitchell INDIANA
Posts: 222

i think they did a very good jod th judges it was true how they were saying it if a dog that has no muscle tone trys to go all nite than they really cant and it was all bout the breed standerd wat they are sapose to have in them like the feet legs and every thing else at home here they do it they same but we arnt so big we trot around and every thing i dont no it every ones opinions

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Registered: Jul 2006
Location: ky. U.S.A.
Posts: 642

the judges were looking for correct movent, and the reach a dog has to give it power, dogs that take short steps in rear or there back feet pass where rhere front feet came up from are incorrect in movement there for do we just want to breed for a good, flashy dog or do we want to keep our breed improving to make it the best we can.. take your dog and put there feet in water and walk them across a concrete floor and see if there back feet are in line and where they step that will tell you how correct they are in that part. not just standing on a bench where a good handlel can hide faults in feet turning and elbos ant in line with there body.. i like a good looking flashy dog that is correct to the breed standards thats what im breeding for. personaly i thought the judges done a good job ,, it takes a little while to pick when you have that many good dogs,, i dont see where you have AKC in this ,, but they show the same way as ukc does,, all except there multi breed shows and doesent ukc have them also,, the way i see it is we have got way off on our breeding we have breed for looks not the correct standards. anscox you were correct on what you said. ,, and if most people dont get a piece of the pie they find something wrong with the way its fixed.. owell we all cant be winners so be happy and enjoy the shows and seeing your friends. dont mean to hurt anyone feelingsbut thats the way it is most of the time.. good luck to all. see ya,, steve,,

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Registered: Feb 2009
Location: Mt. Washington Kentucky
Posts: 425

quote:

---

Originally posted by Natalie Drake
Did anyone be sides me think that this years Autumn Oaks was the worst one yet. What is the deal with judging a coonhound like AKC judges would. It is just wrong. coonhunters dont care how correct there dog is just that it can run and tree. I think the judging is getting way out of control. This angel and that angel is for the birds. It is wonderful that people want to show in the conformation show, but leave the coonhound show people alone that dont want to show in the conformation classes. This is a BENCH SHOW! Some people choose not to show there dogs in conformation classes. I for one just want to show my dog, and thats it. And what is the deal with running around the arena. A coonhound needs to move in there own natural way. Do you think that a hound is going to run like that in the woods. NO!!!!! We show people need to start standing up for our selves our we all my as well just start putting our skirts and suits on now, because soon there will not be any benches for us to put our hounds on.

---

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Registered: Nov 2008
Location: gerry, ny
Posts: 309

I think Wayne and Mark both did a great job, One thing I noticed was the fact that none of the dogs had straight anglation, small tiny little "whippet" type dogs..
The fact is they picked houndy looking with great anglation, and deep chest cavity and great looking..
Great Job at setting the standard, Wayne and Mark..

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Registered: Sep 2003
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I have written 3 post and my wife has erased all of them so all I can say IS I LEARNED A LOT @##@^%%^^^ )((*^ ))(*&^^ ))(**&^%^% and that is all I have to say H L Meyer.

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Registered: Dec 2003
Location: nwpa
Posts: 2385

i wasn't there so i have no idea what the format was. but from i can tell from the pics. at last a judge came along who knows what a coonhound is!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! i had given up on ever showing at a big show ever again after what i saw win at english days. as i told ukc on sat. i didn't have show dogs i had hunting stock. well after seeing the pics i can see that hunting and show can be put together.


hmmmmm can it be we have sour grapes because same old same old didn't happen?????????????????

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Registered: Jul 2003
Location: Webster, Fl.
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Hmmm, I haven't shown in about 1 1/2 yrs. Considering coming back, but after seeing bench shows turn more toward AKC type shows, I may find myself a new hobby. I don't know what dogs are winning a big percentage of what lately. But I have noticed a big trend, and this is true of the past, of dogs being picked that have NO shoulders or stifles.

Now after viewing photos from Oaks, I'm a bit disappointed in what I see was picked for 3 days. I see dogs w/ their shoulders sloping up to their rear ends, dips in their backs, chest bones sticking out in front (like a cattle guard on a train), broke down pasterns, etc. Sure, a dog's head is houndy, but is that all we're looking for? Soon our coonhounds will be considered "Head Breeds" in AKC show rings.

And let me tell ya. My husband hunts many long nights in the Florida swamps. He hunts some darn ugly dogs and I have yet to see their ugly butts break down or have no more will to hunt after years of hard hunting.

I love a pretty hound. But, "Pretty is, as pretty does."

(I may start playing Bingo as a new hobby)

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Registered: Aug 2003
Location: Windber, PA
Posts: 694

I agree 100% with him. I can usually figure out what a BSJ is leaning towards when the show starts. Whether he/she prefers in the different breeds but I can honestly say I couldn't figure it out with most of the choices during any of the three shows. I can speak for my family and friends that were there with me - and no, this isn't sour grapes because I've never won at AO and my father in law did win this year - I was highly disappointed in the format and sure hope this was just a "50th anniversary" thing. I think it was mentioned in another reply that if we wanted to attend a ground show, there are other UKC events for this or even another kennel club that accepts Coonhounds for ground shows. There were a couple of times that while I was in the ring and was standing near the judge and could watch the dog in front of me gait - I was looking at the same thing he was - and then the dog went on and won...I couldn't figure it out. I could see exactly what he was seeing and it wasn't pretty or CORRECT!!!

For the past three months, all we as subscribers of the CB and users of this message board have had shoved down our throats was "just you wait and see what we have in store for you" and this was it? Sorry, not impressed. To me and my family, this event is even bigger to us than the world championship and I was sadly let down.

I'm hoping that UKC's photographers got some good shots of the hounds that were chosen and the judges can take a look back, scratch their heads and say "how'd that happen?".

I doubt any of the opinions of what any of us have to say will change the powers that be at UKC.... I mean, we've been asking for how long now that even the gr. ch. opposite sex winners be awarded at least a ribbon and THAT didn't even change. But, I'm tired of being nice and polite. It's my opinion and I'm entitled to it.

Stacy, too bad we lived so far apart, I'd look you up for a good night of bingo!

Connie Hogan
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Last edited by Connie on 09-08-2009 at 09:12 PM

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Registered: Aug 2003
Location: SHOW ME STATE - SEDALIA, MISSOURI
Posts: 627

Disappointed in not being able to hear the judges reason for the dogs chosen and totally confused because I didn't see any set pattern in choices of dogs.

I never expected the judges to pretend to have food in their hands to get my dogs attention. I know they do this in AKC but I was showing UKC.
I wish the judges would of used microphone so everyone could hear what they said. I only heard bits and pieces.
I know of one person who claims running around the ring really hurt his foot and he has quite a few health issues. He left early claiming his back and foot were killing him from running around the ring.
I heard another had a heart attack either while showing in the ring or after leaving the ring.
I enjoy watching the older generation show who have been in hounds for years and hope running around the ring doesn't continue or we will eliminate those who started years ago.
Being the 50th anniversary I expected nicer prizes for the winners too.

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Registered: Jun 2003
Location: North Carolina
Posts: 4502

couldn't agree more Connie, there was a lot of inconsistancy. I did get a piece of the pie on friday so I am not being bitter. however, its a shame when you have bigger dogs and that its known that the judge will not pick a big dog because they can not carry themselves thru the woods and will knock trees down and tear up corn fields is a little disheartening. I am disappointed that mine did not at least make the cut, but I guess there's next year.

I only had 2 dogs in the show on Friday and by the time it was over, I was exhausted. the format was similar to last year, but this time was waaaay too long.

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Registered: Aug 2006
Location: munfordville ky.
Posts: 1166

some people would not be happy if you handed them a $100. !!

i aint no show person but you aint hiding nothing gating a dog. you can hide alot on the bench.

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Registered: Apr 2009
Location: N. Ga
Posts: 42

I just feel sorry for the folks that won. If they read this you ppl make them feel like losers. I bet they left AO thinking they was a winner. This post sure make them all feel like they aint worthy. I personally saw alot a folks in them win pictures that I aint never seen before and I seen some kids too. Looks to me like politics didnt play a role and some of you is tore up about that. Looks to me like you ought to be praising them kids too instead of crying over spilt milk. But what do I no.

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Registered: Oct 2005
Location: Astoria, Illinois
Posts: 73

I started this post to talk about how the show was conducted, not to make people feel bad about there win, if someone feels that way i am truly sorry. and its not about winning or losing, cause i can take a loss just as good as the next. NOT ABOUT WINNING OR LOSSING GET THAT THROUGH YOUR HEAD. SOME PEOPLE MISSED THE POINT OF THIS POST COMPLETELY. ENOUGH SAID!!!!!! CONGRADULATIONS TO THOSE WHO DID WIN.

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Registered: Mar 2008
Location: Western N.Y.
Posts: 3995

"Correct structure relates to performance" Baloney. everything that makes a dog a coondog is on the inside. Its nice that some people enjoy showing on the bench and im not running that down but its got little or nothing to do with how a dog performs in the woods. iv seem three legged dogs hunt hard all night long. All this tight little catfooted stuff makes me laugh. Pretty is as pretty does. I show mine in the woods.

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Registered: Nov 2008
Location: gerry, ny
Posts: 309

Here is my opinion on this "so-called bench/conformation shows"
Just in people's minds, no one will ever be happy with a "one man's or more opinion on the breed standards. Everyone interprets the breed standards differently. Everyone has a different version on what a "coonhound" should like and what the conformation should be.
In this, since everyone has different opinions, no one will ever will be happy.
And how the "judges" judges and how they want to see the dogs, which in the rules it states that "The judge is in charge of the ring, and his decision is final" I take that as the judge has the right to do whatever format he or she pleases as in how he or she wants to see the dogs go.
Again of course no one will ever be happy...
But again just our opinion, in case like this, we should all pay attention on how the President and Vice President of UKC interpets the breed standards and how a "Coonhound" looks and moves..
I personally agree with their picks..They both should come to one of our "little shows" .. They would like what our "little shows" have to offer
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Registered: Aug 2003
Location: Windber, PA
Posts: 694

most of those that are always in the pics STILL ARE. Besides, like I mentioned before, it's my opinion and I'm entitled to it.

Roughcreek, I don't have one thing to hide about my dogs whether it's on the ground or on the bench. I just don't feel that we needed to run around the ring, put the dogs on the bench, run around the ring some more, put the dogs BACK up on the bench. Some of those handlers had health problems and it showed once they were FINALLY done running around the ring. It wasn't necessary if you ask me. In the past, we would WALK towards the judge, WALK back and almost half way around the ring to get a front, back and side view of the dog gaiting. This year's format was a waste.

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