Registered: Nov 2007
Location: Missouri
Posts: 65

Several years ago in a 4 dog night champion cast. Three dogs strike and become treed. Dog d opens up down the ditch past the dogs. Dogs a, b, and c are declared treed, before the 5 minutes runs out dog c leaves tree and is minused. 5 minutes expires, go to Dogs a, and b and find opussum in tree. Dogs a and b are scratched, what happens to dog c?

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Well he doesn't get scratched because you have no way of knowing if he was treed under the possum. He may have been split tree 30 feet away!

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Registered: Sep 2004
Location: Iowa
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almost the exact question was posted yesterday. A lot of different views. Caused a lot of controversy

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Matt Kiehn

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Well no, it isn't the same question as yesterday. In that one the judge said he saw the dog under the possum and another handler said he wasn't there. That was the controversy. In the situation above, nobody saw dog C under the possum or under any tree for that matter. Completely different situation.

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k

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Matt Kiehn

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IMHO.... C gets his minus because you dont know for sure that he was on that tree. He was not seen under the possum so you can not scratch him. JMO

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JiM is 100% correct !!!!

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Registered: Nov 2007
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The handler of Dog d wanted to vote on whether dog c should be scratched and the judge was over ruled by a majority to scratch dog c.

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Registered: Jan 2007
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the majority got it wrong this time if what you say happend just that way.... they have to be seen under the possum.. or with it in his mouth,,,,, or in a hole,,,,,, cant scratch on a maybe....

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How much minus do you give dog C.

If it had last tree 50.

If you are saying it could have been split 125.

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Registered: Nov 2007
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how much minus does dog c take

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quote:

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Originally posted by JiM
Well he doesn't get scratched because you have no way of knowing if he was treed under the possum. He may have been split tree 30 feet away!

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quote:

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Originally posted by elvis
I thought they were all considered treed together unless it was an obvious split?
If your not gonna scratch the dog for the possum than you must move him to 125. but how can you do that unless it was obvious they were split?

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quote:

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Originally posted by brogy
I love it when this happens.... 2 of the most knowledgeable rule gurus on the board with different intereptations. As always, my money is on Elvis. Sorry JiM.
I agree with JiM, tough to scratch a dog not being seen molesting or treeing off game but in this situation the dog is either scratched or is moved up to 125- on tree. And I don't see how can do either without seeing the dog on either a split tree or the tree with off game.

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Registered: Sep 2004
Location: Iowa
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Just thought I would throw one more thing in. If a dog leaves a tree and goes on isn't that the point where he is minused? You don't say hey dog c left the tree, but we'll wait until we get to the tree to see what was there before we minus him. As soon as he leaves the judge should say dog c is minused whatever he is treed in for and his strike is still open.

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Last edited by iamattk on 07-08-2008 at 08:19 PM

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quote:

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Originally posted by iamattk
Just thought I would throw one more thing in. If a dog leaves a tree and goes on isn't that the point where he is minused? You don't say hey dog c left the tree, but we'll wait until we get to the tree to see what was there before we minus him. As soon as he leaves the judge should say dog c is minused whatever he is treed in for and his strike is still open.

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Registered: Sep 2004
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I understand, but you make the decision where he is treed when he is treed and right it on the scorecard. If you get there and he is split and it's obvious he hasn't moved then you move him up. Whether or not he WAS treed under a opossum really doesn't matter because the tree can't be scored until the dogs are handled and shining time has started during which time dog c wasn't there. I can't believe someone agreed with me.

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You cannot put a dog down for split tree unless the split is obvious so dog C went on the card as treed 3rd and stays that way because no one knows if the dog was split or not. And that is the very same reason that dog cannot be scratched for the possum. You have no way of knowing if he treed the possum or not.
You must know the dog was split to move it to 125 tree points. You don't know that so the dog stays at 50.
You must know the dog was at the possum tree to scratch and you don't know that so you can't scratch.
This one is very simple. You can try to make it as hard as you want but it will remain very simple.

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quote:

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Originally posted by JiM
You cannot put a dog down for split tree unless the split is obvious so dog C went on the card as treed 3rd and stays that way because no one knows if the dog was split or not. And that is the very same reason that dog cannot be scratched for the possum. You have no way of knowing if he treed the possum or not.
You must know the dog was split to move it to 125 tree points. You don't know that so the dog stays at 50.
You must know the dog was at the possum tree to scratch and you don't know that so you can't scratch.
This one is very simple. You can try to make it as hard as you want but it will remain very simple.

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Registered: Sep 2004
Location: Iowa
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in the case of minusing a dog on a tree that has off game in it you do have to see the off game.

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Matt Kiehn

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sorry elvis read your post wrong

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Matt Kiehn

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50- I agree with Jim. Have to see him on tree with possum. Have to minus him when he leaves the tree at whatever point value he is at then.

JMHO

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Registered: Jun 2007
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DOG C GETS -50..HE SHOULD BE MINUSED THE INSTANT HE HAS LEFT THE TREE.. HE CAN NOT BE MINUSED 125 UNLESS HE WAS OBVIOUSLY SPLIT..CAN NOT BE SCRATCHED UNLESS SEEN UNDER OR MOLESTING OFF GAME!!!HE IS MINUSED FROM LEAVING TREE AND HIS STRIKE IS STILL OPEN..JUST A BAD BREAK OR A GOOD BREAK IF YOU WERE THE HANDLER OF DOG C...

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I see the point of wanting to scratch the dog if you declare that he was with the other dogs (treed for 50). BUT just because he was treed for 50 does not mean that he would definately be scored for 50. The judge documents the scores down in sequence as to how they are called. How many times have you walked in and a dog treed for 25 was bumped up to 125 because he was split. OK we all know that it is very basic. So basically this situation is no different than if you walked into a tree and a dog is declared treed 4th for 25 but is not there and you run the two on him.!!!! Now by running the two you're obviously agreeing that he was split but you still don't move that dog up and minus him for 125 if the 2 catches him because A DOG IS NEVER MOVED UP IN A TREE SCORING SITUATION UNLESS HE IS DISCOVERED TO BE SPLIT UPON ARRIVAL, OR UNTIL IT IS OBVIOUS. This dog was declared tree 3rd thus he goes in for 50 but he was never seen or handled on this off game tree so he is minused his 50 for going back on track. JMO

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Registered: Jun 2003
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you guys are no fun.
I could use a lil help getting JiM fired up on occasion.

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