Registered: Mar 2006
Location: Buckeye State
Posts: 431

Just a question but it could be done, this past year we put over 60 casts out in the morning for reg. and only 16 make it, thats only 27% its possible to run two rounds on sat. and two on sunday. There's a few possibilities, all first round winners go back out, or increase it to 32, that would only add one more round, I know that if its elimination style, it could be a little more difficult, maybe two or three rounds on sat. I would run 90 min. on sat. But this would all be worth the while. we would be accomplishing what we came their for crowning, or at least trying reward the best dog. Remember we should'nt reward those who have the so-called honey-holes, remember a world class dog will only score points, where points able to be scored. Everyone should keep that in mind. If you all remember a few years ago, they just took the top four hi point dogs, in the morning. Isn't funny how almost all year, at the local hunts no-one scores 1000 points or more, but in that case a lot of dogs do. Sounds like the pencil works a little harder than the dogs. I'm really not trying to knock the whole system or any one, I really enjoy everything about the UKC and what its about just trying to voice something that I myself and a lot of other beaglers feel as well. Let me know, this is how we get things done speak out.

Last edited by LARRY DEAN on 07-26-2007 at 08:59 PM

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Registered: Aug 2003
Location: Calhoun KY
Posts: 995

lets make it even more fair...
All guides have to draw an area also.
not just PICK WHERE they want to go.

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Registered: May 2004
Location: mt. vernon, oh
Posts: 28

So you want the guides to guide someplace they may have never been, or somewhere they may not have permission.

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Registered: Aug 2003
Location: Calhoun KY
Posts: 995

Draw the Guides for the casts is what i ment
Draw out your casts then draw out the guides.
each guide should have thier spots picked out before the hunt Right? So then let the guides draw from thier areas...
just something to stop the guides from dryholin the good dogs!!!
We all know it happens!!!!! just give all the dogs an Equal and fair chance!!!!

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Registered: Jun 2003
Location: Coshocton,Ohio
Posts: 2613

I will comment on the guide part only. Some of us live in Coshocton and other area's not far from Holmesville, 45 to 1 hr. ride. Last year I guided only ,3 or 4 cast back to my area. My casts had rabbits to run. You and I both know what its like when we use to go to those big coon hunt and sometimes drive 60 miles to and back to the clubhouse. As far as dryholes, I get that everyday when running dogs, here at home, one day you can pound and the next day you may only run one. I've tride to figure it out but these rabbits are alot smarter than me. Just ask anyone on this board. Maybe caused from electric fence, right Fluhart.

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Registered: Jan 2007
Location: Millersburg,Ohio
Posts: 1976

Thornie,
I am like you I guide more than 1 cast each round. My cast usually run rabbitts and do pretty good. My spots are natural, they are not stocked, the rabbitts are not fed it just a normal field.
I think we have all seen the trend of higher and higher scores at the natioanals. It is crazy. I think we need to take all first round cast winners or try something different.
It is tuff for people driving along way to compete. I just think we need to maintain a fair playing field for every one.
Not trying to make anyone mad, not pointing any fingers. I wish I had some places like that to run.
I have never ever heard of anyone with a good dog being dry holed. I don't belive that happens. Not here out of the Central Ohio Clubs.

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Registered: Jan 2007
Location: IOWA
Posts: 155

I think the nationals needs to use the elimination style in order to stop all the gossip and dishonesty and place everyone on an equal playing field. The current format encourages people to be dishonest with the pencil when only 27% of the cast winners get to move into second round. That leaves 73% of the dogs that did the best in there cast, in the enviroment they hunted in to be eliminated. Then all the motel parking lot gossip of local beaglers purchasing 100 san jaun rabbits just prior to the nationals would not matter anymore. If all I have to do is win my cast to move on I don't care who bought rabbits, who was dishonest with the scorecard, who has honey holes, or who got placed in a so called dry hole. This post is not directed or intended to inflict negitivity on the job the host clubs have done in the past two years I have attended, they have done an exceptional job with all they have to deal with. I don,t believe that any club has 60 hunting spots that has above average rabbit population within one hour of there clubhouse, so someone has to be in the less fortunate casts that go to the lesser spots. This is why I think going to elimination style would be a great improvement even if it takes adding another day of running to make it possible. This format would make the nationals a more fair and friendly enviroment while doing a lot better job of determining the best dog.

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Registered: Jul 2003
Location: almost heaven / Holmes county
Posts: 1591

This topic has been brought up before, But lets think about it.. The Nationals are getting bigger every year, If we would take all cast winners it could NOT be held in 2 days, This past year we had casts traveling up to 2hrs away, deadline to return has to be 1:00pm or later, 70 casts- 70 winners, thats 19 casts going back out , they get to the woods at 2:30 - 3:00 that deadline would have to be 6:00- 7:00pm,When are you gonna run round 3 & 4 ? after dark ? You can't wait and run sunday morning, I sure wouldn't want to leave my Champion or Grand in the box just to run my reg dog again Would YOU ? PLUS Where are they gonna hunt? A place that was just ran 2-3 hrs before ? I personally have 5-6 GOOD spots that I hunt and have permission, I give EVERY ONE of those spots out to casts on saturday morning, thus I have NO fresh spots to run round 2, then ya have the bench show to hold also, when are you going to squeeze this in? I totally understand everyones frustration, but there is NO WAY to put that many casts out and have every one of them in a "honey hole". I feel that if UKC would crack down on running domesticated rabbits it would help more than anything else, If a hunter see's they are running rabbits other than WILD, they should question it and demand to go to the master of hounds.I assure you there has NEVER been a rabbit (domestic or wild) turned loose in any of my spots. My best spots produced 400- 500+ this past year on saturday morning, a week later at our WQE the same spots produced 1337.5+, So HONEYHOLES don't always work out, I feel the biggest factor is the dogs you draw, If they don't work together you won't score high. Just my oppinion

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Registered: Aug 2003
Location: Calhoun KY
Posts: 995

ok heres an idea.
just an idea
limit the entrys to a certain number of dogs....
Most Folks plan thier hunts well in advance So shouldnt be a problem.
Draw all Areas Also. Dont take but just a few min More to draw the areas after the casts are drawn.
When another club i used to hunt at started having problems with Who Got the honey holes and who Didnt they started Drawing areas no more Problems.
The guides usually know what areas are gonna be available to them So let em put em in the hat to be drawn.
Just makes it more Fair and NO More problems with folks complainin about who got the honey holes.
Every Dog and handler has the same chance that way....

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Registered: Jul 2003
Location: almost heaven / Holmes county
Posts: 1591

Sorry but this "drawing for spots" makes no sence to me, are you gonna have people going to places they don't know ect?? I'm sure not going to give up the spot I manage and control all year to anyone. Besides I don't see what is so unfair about the way its done. The guides are the first ones on the card, then the rest of the cast is drawn randomly. I don't know how your club does it but around here every local hunter has there OWN spots that they get permission from the land owner to run on. You can't just send a stranger onto some elses land, It would only take about 1 time to loose all your hunting rights.

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Registered: Jun 2003
Location: East OH
Posts: 938

I am not a big competition hunter ,but I believe all sports have a home town advantage. That is just part of the game.

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Registered: Jan 2005
Location: Indiana
Posts: 155

I agree with you Albert Fulton, but should the Nationals have a home team?

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Registered: Aug 2006
Location: Lebanon, MO
Posts: 110

I think in an ideal field trail you wouldn t have a home field advantage and every club would have a non-hunting guide. I would say about 10% of the time around here that happens. Maybe alittle more in winners pack. But most clubs have so little help its hard enough just to find enough places to hunt much less the help to run the hunt. Its kind of funny that way...the more people you invite the more help you need and the less help you get. I think that nationals would have to be a 7 weekend event in more than one state to get all the guides time to hunt and give all the dogs time to run. Then you have to worry about human error. Look at the race for president. Do you really want to start re-counting. The second guessing. so on snd so on.

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Registered: Aug 2006
Location: Lebanon, MO
Posts: 110

quote:

---

Originally posted by tjcrewse
ok heres an idea.
just an idea
limit the entrys to a certain number of dogs....

---

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Registered: Aug 2006
Location: Lebanon, MO
Posts: 110

Look I am a new guy. I am not real great with the history of the sport. I have been invold in alot of sporting events, So I think the best way to solve this is to have a Regional event or State or both.................................. Thats it top 10 from every state goes to the nationals. That would cut you down to 120 enters at most and probally leave you with only 50 dogs. And that would bring more dogs to your state hunts. ...........If that doesnt work than throw a regional event in. Cut your dogs in half again. Now you have 60 dogs at the most a probally more like 25 dogs left. But that means everyone has to trust each other and you are going to have to travel out of state for regionals.

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Registered: Aug 2003
Location: Calhoun KY
Posts: 995

Ok Scott i understand What you are saying here is what i see happening Dogs are Drawn out Guide looks at the Dogs or Handlers Decides then On Were they are going!! Whats to Stop you or another guide From taking the Folks to the Dry Hole over the Honey hole?
Choose the Spot to hunt before the cast is Drawn then!!!!
Take away Any Doubt!!!!!


Ummm Woodhill What i was saying was limit the NUMBER OF DOGS NOT WHO Entered

Like say Only 150 dog max entrys get em in by Such and such date like 2 weeks before the trial
Entries close at 150 dogs ect........The First 150 Entrys recieved All your hunts are scheduled way in advance so all UKC would have to do is Get the schedule out 30 days before the trial

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Registered: Jul 2003
Location: almost heaven / Holmes county
Posts: 1591

Ok I see what your saying now but for the last 4-5 yrs I've been behind the entry table and never once saw what your saying happen, You might be mislead , I have saw a cast or 2 come back to the table after they have been drawn out that maybe we annouced a guide who can't guide, Then I might have looked at the card to see who was on it and if anyone of them had hunted 1 of my spots in the past, then I may have told them where to go, or grabbed a non hunting guide from my back ups and told them a place to take them ect. I have NEVER intentionally dry holed anyone, The no#1 reason for this is I don't have any "Dry holes" and I have never saw a dry hole in Holmes County, the 2nd reason being I have never ran against a dog that I was THAT afraid of running against , If they beat me FINE, if I know their hound is good FINE, I want to run against them anyway just to see how well my hound compares. I can tell you which one of my dogs will be hunting where atleast a week before the Nationals and if I have any spots left over I can tell you who will be going there way before the casts are drawn unless its a mix up. Just ask ask Mitch Gould, Ben Hall, and Ted Heldreth about the spots I sent them at the 06 Nationals, Or ask Chris Overcash, or Ottie Burke this year. Is it illegal to put freinds or people that have your blood into good spots? I don't think so, thats just another 4 dogs that I KNOW will be running rabbits. Don't be offended by my statements, I'm not trying to stir up anything I just want to get to the bottom of why people think the draw may be rigged. I personally take alot of pride in getting that many dogs into the feild , and I'm sure Denny & Dave feel the same as me, besides us 3 , Todd Morgan and the MOH NO ONE touchs the cards till they are drawn out. I assure you you are mistakin, and I want to figure out why.

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Registered: Dec 2006
Location: Missouri
Posts: 305

Maybe it should be like the world have zones or change location where other states could have it that way maybe people will find out what it is like to have a big hunt like that then they won't complain about it being a home advantage Maybe people are thinking it is home advantage because all the big hunts is held in Ohio also on the Black Gold Challenge hunts it is hard to compete on this in the west and south because we don't have any around all year long and we have to travel a long ways to attend one where people in Ohio, West Virginia, Pennsylvania to name some has them all year long and don't have to drive away to attend them. Stop the challenge series in the summer months and start back in early fall. Just a thought I attended the nationals and thought you guys did a great job with all the dogs that was there on finding hunting spots.

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Registered: Aug 2003
Location: Calhoun KY
Posts: 995

Scott I Apologize if You thought I was talking about You personally.
I have never Seen Anything Done Wrong by YOU or the Club
I have been there One time and Was Treated Well By Most.
And have Nothing at all negative to say about the Club or any of the Folks I met there...
I guess I just REALLY Picked a bad time to bring this topic up!!!
At the Hunt that I was at I Did not personally Witness the drawing of the casts. But On one Cast One of the Handlers was asking the guide Wich area he was gonna take the other Cast On..
He Replied Well they all Scored high this morning and it is some of the same dogs So lets take em to Such and Such area its a lot harder to get a rabbit up there.
Shouldnt this in all fairness been decided before the Cast was drawn? not So much Who the guide would be But the area he was gonna take em?
On Another note I have NEVER heard anyone Say a negative thing about You personally Or Some of the other fellas at Holmesville and I was Not trying to acuse you guys of anything you all do a fantastic job acording to those that I have talked to that matter.
I have seen the thing that I mentioned happen at a couple other clubs and was asking to see what you Personally have done to prevent this type of thing.
You have answered All my Questions with honesty and I appreciate that. Sure makes Driving 8 hours to a hunt a little more appealing when you know that your gonna get a fair shake...
Se yall in Aug and hopefully more in the years to come.
TC

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Registered: Apr 2004
Location: Milton, WV
Posts: 2551

If too many entries is the problem causing it to be impossible to have an elimination style nationals....

Why not limit the amount of dogs entered by one person? Something like 3 or 5... Surely you can pick out your best 3-5..

-Jack

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Registered: Jul 2003
Location: almost heaven / Holmes county
Posts: 1591

TC, No offence taken, like I said I just wanted to find out if what you said was acctually happening so I could put a STOP to it, Discussion makes for good ideas and better hunts. Now back to the original post, I noticed some people voted to take the top 32 ...... Mathamatically this would not work, You could however take the top 64, 16 casts going back, then those 16 into 4 casts those 4 cast winners would be in the finals, it could be done in 4 rounds. BUT heres the problem, 1st Where are they gonna hunt ? With 60-70 casts going out in the morning you are NOT gonna find 16 fresh spots. 2nd You could hold 2 rounds on saturday but When would you run round 3& 4 ? 3rd If you ran round 3 on sunday morning that means 16 handlers would have to scratch their CH or GR so they could run reg. 4th If you added another day this means Registered dogs run FRIDAY....... People would have to take an extra day off work to travel, then if you run registered elimination style you would have to do the same for CH & GR thus causing the hunt to run over till Monday requiring ANOTHER day off, your basically burning a weeks vacation on the Nationals, Thus causing fewer dogs coming from other states, makin the NATIONALS just another CLUB HUNT. I say its going good the way it is and "IF IT AIN'T BROKE....DON'T FIX IT. Just keep coming and sooner or later you'll get drawn to a honey hole ...... Just pray you've got the dog power enough to win your cast when you do. LOL!!!! Again JMO

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Registered: Nov 2006
Location: Coshocton Ohio
Posts: 752

It is possible to run as many as 60 casts in a one hour drive of Holmesville. If you use all available clubs in this area to their fullest
In the past you use a few of the regular handlers from these other clubs. If you would go to these other club officers and ask for their help in organizing the help in advance and then go by the plan it would work.

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Registered: Jun 2006
Location: marion ohio
Posts: 160

I like the thought of getting out as many cast winners as possible even if the spot has already been ran.

Another way would be to take all cast winners and redraw lottery style to see who gets to return. It does not make since to reward someone who scores 1000 points over a hound that may have worked harder to score 200 points due to luck of location ground cover ect. This would make a fairer playing field for all. No more advantage of having a better spot or pressure to score massive points. I do not think a hound is better just because it scores high points. The airport is always a high scoring spot due to all the paths and bunnies is there an advantage for the guide that takes his cast there yes!!

The second round could be all the cast winners and then have the lottery drawing from those winners for the finals and we would have ever less for chance. Say 60 cast winners run, only 15 winners return. Have a drawing for the finals and place the rest by points. At least then if you win your cast you would be able to place top 15.

I enjoy meeting all the people that come to one of the biggest hunts of the year. I do not think anything is rigged or unfair under current rules, and what a fabulous job was done to pull off such a big event.

Last edited by tdog on 07-30-2007 at 02:47 AM

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Registered: Apr 2004
Location: Milton, WV
Posts: 2551

quote:

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Originally posted by tdog
Another way would be to take all cast winners and redraw lottery style to see who gets to return.

---

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Registered: Jan 2004
Location: cental Michigan
Posts: 92

I agree with tdog even if you keep it to 16 advance to the sat afternoon round put all first round cast winners in a hat pull out 16 and cut them loose. Nobody complaining about honey holes then.

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