Registered: May 2016
Location: Palatka, FL
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Dog has a problem. They all do. But the first thing is we start trying to psycho analyze the problem to see what their thinking is. We all want good dogs and I can tell you what a good dogs desire is. Finding the game it is bred to find when turned loose. It doesn't let swamps, gators, snakes, darkness, and improper handling stand in its way. Game is ran and treed. That should be the dogs motivation and nothing stands in the way.

You don't hire or train a bank teller that can't count. Yes you might hire one not understanding the problem/situation. Yes a bank teller is a human being. Humans reason and their mental ability should at a level to learn the job. Some people just cannot handle money, count it out right and add up the numbers. They can't take the pressure of 3 people standing in line wanting to deposit and get out of there. Now if humans fall into this category and the answer is for them to go find where they fit and enjoy themselves. Why do you think every dog can be trained to be a coonhound. Majority of these dogs just don't have the ability. But it is easier to try and figure out how to psycho analyze dog and then get into its mind and make it respond. With treats, days at the dog park, long walks, petting and cuddling. Easier to tell you buddy that the dog is scared of the dark if the moon lines up to the there stars to the left of it. It's a bunch of excuses that get you off the hook as a dog handler/trainer. Then you spend nights trying to figure out how the dog is seeing he moon and those three stars. Then months trying to figure out how many nights a year they will be aligned like that so you can stay home. We love on excuses, our world is excuses. That doesn't work in the dog world. We live in a world that to many ignore the facts in front of them because they are harsh.

Dogs respond to simple and consistent behavior from their owners. We all know the old lady that can't open her door without the dog running out. The dog barks at everything and runs and jumps on everything including everyone entering the house. All the time the old lady is yelling at the top of her lungs at the dog. That dog can be calmed down almost instantly by someone that will be firm with it. We already know the situation the dog is in made it crazy. You don't have to send it to a shrink to figure that out. Just apply consistent and firm directions that the dog can follow.

Simple as I can put it. The dogs mind should be programmed by genetics to do all you want it to do. Don't try and get in the dogs mind, but get into the other end to make it live up the it's genetic ability.

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Last edited by Bruce m. Conkey on 11-05-2021 at 02:32 PM

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I’d have to disagree to a point. No matter how genetically prepotent a coonhound is they will always be influenced by environmental factors including improper handling.
You can take two genotypically identical pups and they will turn out different by how they have experienced life up to a certain point.
Also, I don’t think complaining about people putting their heads together on a forum, that is meant for discussion, is an issue. It’s always good to garner someone else’s outside opinion, you may learn something.
Now, I know who you are, as do many. Casting stones doesn’t make for good business.

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That is exactly what I am doing here. Trying to learn from someone else's opinion while sharing mine. Just don't think all the dog therapy will work at my house. If it works for someone else. Great. I am simple and I want my dogs simple. Let the out of the pen. They get in the truck. Not in the flower bed. Not in the garbage. I drop the tailgate in the woods and they go find a Coon. Not a deer not an armadillo. They tree I want to see a Coon. I can't get to the tree I tone them and call them on. Anything they do that don't please me, I let them know in a firm way. You are extremely correct about environment. Because our dogs on most cases have improved hunting and treeing genetics over dogs 50 years ago. Not better but more dogs have what it takes. Just need to get the environment right for them. Like I said. A firm hand and not mind games work for me.

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Last edited by Bruce m. Conkey on 11-05-2021 at 05:24 PM

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I can agree with you there. A dog I raise from a young better do exactly what you described or they can’t live here. I require three things: heart, drive, and common sense.
The issue lies in dogs that were probably decent animals to begin with that were conditioned by man to have major flaws.
I have hunted two of them over the last couple months. One of them was a described in a previous post I made.

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Many times I've stated 50% genetics, 50% environment. One without the other makes the dog pretty much useless. All the genetics in the world can be ruined in a very short time that can take a very long time to correct. This is where all that psychoanalysis comes in, when you are fixing mistakes caused by man.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Bruce m. Conkey
Simple as I can put it. The dogs mind should be programmed by genetics to do all you want it to do. Don't try and get in the dogs mind, but get into the other end to make it live up the it's genetic ability. [/B]

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Can't remember the last time I had to strike a dog. If I do it is with a simple tool I found a long time ago. A simple horse crop that is just a folded piece of imitation leather on the end of a flexible rod about the size of a straw and maybe 14" long. You ever slap one with it. The next time you just have to show it to them. Dogs are a lot smarter and more resilient than most give them credit for. I see packs of hounds stopped at the edge of a road by toning them and they head for the truck and all load. I have seen dogs of all breeds that have been worked by their owners that do exactly what they are suppose to do. Seen hog dogs that have a hog bayed simple be called back so a hunter can dispatch the hog and not hit a dog. I have seen catch dogs watch all kind of hog action and never leave its owners side till it was patted on the head and told to catch. Seen pack of bobcat hounds load and unload and handled with just a voice. Same for a pack of lion hounds and bear hounds. Deer hounds stopped on a dime. The list goes on and it is the expectations of the owner that makes things work. You have no expectations or desire to control the dog. You have a dog out of control. You control them for their own good. The woods are not a place for a weak person or dog.

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You can take this to the bank regarding genetics in every living creature. Genetics deals the cards, but environment plays the hand period. Dave

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Last edited by Dave Richards on 11-05-2021 at 09:29 PM

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I see good replies…as already said…genetics is of most importance…dog handling is just as important if you want to get the best from the dog…

The steps to getting the best from your pup or dog is fairly easy when done right…

I can get rid of a pup pretty quick…does not have anything to do if he or she will make a decent dog or that I lack patience…it just means I don’t think it will grow up to meet my standards…I’ve got rid of some that others like fairly well that I still wouldn’t own…I’ve also given away pups that were as good as my best…

There’s only two things I break my pups from…
Livestock and deer…I break them off deer as pups in my backyard and off livestock at my brothers ranch not even close to the woods…I make a statement when I do…other than that it is releasing dogs at the right time and right place with very little intervention…

One other thing I will not tolerate and I will use the force needed to stop it ASAP is a dog that wants to claim the game once it is overpowered and starts fighting off the other dogs…

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Last edited by Reuben on 11-06-2021 at 08:55 PM

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quote:

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Originally posted by Reuben
I see good replies…as already said…genetics is of most importance…dog handling is just as important if you want to get the best from the dog…

The steps to getting the best from your pup or dog is fairly easy when done right…

I can get rid of a pup pretty quick…does not have anything to do if he or she will make a decent dog or that I lack patience…it just means I don’t think it will grow up to meet my standards…I’ve got rid of some that others like fairly well that I still wouldn’t own…I’ve also given away pups that were as good as my best…

There’s only two things I break my pups from…
Livestock and deer…I break them off deer as pups in my backyard and off livestock at my brothers ranch not even close to the woods…I make a statement when I do…other than that it is releasing dogs at the right time and right place with very little intervention…

One other thing I will not tolerate and I will use the force needed to stop it ASAP is a dog that wants to claim the game once it is overpowered and starts fighting off the other dogs…

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Life is alot easier hunting pups with natural ability. If you have to beg or plead
a dog to do what should be natural you have a headache.

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Double posted…

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Last edited by Reuben on 11-08-2021 at 09:13 AM

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A little psychology and common sense when raising and training a pup minimizes or eliminates the need for therapy…see a few examples below…

It is much better and easier to break pups off deer in the backyard than in the woods…

But there is an order to follow that makes it work best…

First the pups need to know the game of choice and to want to bay or catch it…and they need to know that we want them to want it too…after that is accomplished we can break them off of deer…

If breaking them off deer in the woods…before going to the woods the pup needs to know the game it will be chasing and catching…and then it needs to be started in the woods where the chance of meeting that game at the beginning is high…so the opportunity in meeting up with unwanted game is minimal…and now the pup has learned the woods is a fun place to be and has been involved in catching the game of choice…after this the pup is now ready to be broken off deer in the woods…

If we send the pup to the woods for the first time and the first thing he sees is a deer and is immediately shocked for running the deer…the pup may not understand what we are trying to achieve…the pup might shut it down and come back and won’t go back in the woods…the pup is thinking the woods is a bad place and it’s best to stay out…the handler is thinking the pup is a cull because he won’t hunt…the pup did not see the deer as the problem…he sees the woods as the problem…

A little common sense mixed with a little psychology goes a long ways and eliminates or minimizes the need for therapy sessions…
I wouldn’t call these folks therapists…I call them dog folks working on becoming better dog men and dog women…

There are dogs that have setbacks because we made a mistake and these dogs are worth saving by putting the time in with them…

And then there are culls that need pet homes that will never make a decent hunting dog…

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Reuben we have a different line of dogs. Mine are not interested in deer.

You guys also miss the boat on shocking collars and their use. I use the training collars basically for two purposes. To teach a young dog to come to me. Then to call an older one off the tree if I can't make it there. That is 99% use of the tone and 1% use of stimulation. I haven't shocked a dog except maybe one quick zap and that is to gets it's attention so it can hear the tone while it is treeing and come back to me, in years.

Here is where the thinking has not progressed over the years with the breeding of our hounds. This is with all types of dogs. Coonhounds, deer hounds, hog dogs, etc.

A basic example for many on here is to shock a dog for running deer and they will quit. I deer hunted with about 5 guys yesterday and each has 5-10 hounds. Everyone of them when they hit a road we wanted to pick them up on was toned and the horn honked and they left a red hot deer race to come get in the truck. Before they learned about the tone, each and everyone of them had some stimulation and the hard headed ones still get it. Thing is they come to you and then when turned loose again. They are not broke off deer. They go find another one to run. That is what they are bred for. When they run the next one across the road they are again stopped with Tone, Horn and stimulation if needed. Training one and controlling it with a stimulation collar is far more advanced than most people think. It is not ruining a dog. It is taking a dog with the breeding to make a good dog, then harnessing the go power to keep the dog safe and under control.

The most important thing in training a young hound is the monkey see monkey do syndrome. If you are trying to train one with a bunch of wild monkey's. Then you have problems and need to straighten out the lead monkey.

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Last edited by Bruce m. Conkey on 11-08-2021 at 12:22 PM

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Reuben in the past years. Two types of hunting have been my choice. Coonhunting and Deer Hunting both with hounds. The deer hunting with hounds is because of the hounds. Not the killing of the deer or the meat. I do a lot more running them than I do shooting at them.

I felt that was always a benefit to my coonhounds for this simple reason. If I got a coonhound pup that didn't have the desire to make a coonhound. I could always run a deer with it and either keep it for deer hunting or find it a good home. That has always been my method of culling my sorry coonhounds. Make a deer hound out of them and let them live a long life doing what they enjoy and are best suited for.

I have had some outstanding deer hounds out of some the best blooded walkers there are. I had a top female out of Hardwood Swamp. She actually didn't want to run them deer at first but then after I turned them out on top of them over and over again. She got the idea and did real good. I got a male puppy out of world champion Handsome Hank. That dog would not look up a tree. I would climb trees with a coon in a sack on a string and he would not even look up at me. Big beautiful dog with large mouth. Made a good deer hound for a buddy of mine. Had one top dog out of Hardwood Hayes, jr. Funny story there is deer season came along and I needed another deer hound. I had two littermate female pups in the pen. One had a real nice mouth and the other had more of a common mouth. I took the one with the common mouth and used her for deer and she done real good. When deer season went out I took her sister out of the pen and started coon hunting her. She was making a nice dog but that is when I figured I had some health issues that wouldn't allow me to take here to the hunts she needed to be in. I was up in KY at the breeders showcase and couldn't finish a cast one night. I got back to the club house and Buck Monroe was there and the dam side of my dogs pedigree was mostly his dogs. I said Buck this is a nice dog and if you want her I will give her to you. I just can't give her the chance she needs. The next spring Buck had a handler friend of his place 3rd in the Junior SS hunt with her. She wasn't a world beater but would tree you a coon in between some slick trees. Lot of coon blooded deer dogs came from here. That was and is my way of culling them. That is what made my coonhounds better. I cut them no slack and if they had a coonhound flaw. Deer running is what they did and that is what showed me. Life is too short not to cull. One of the best deer hound crosses I made was a Male I had out of Hardwood Dan crossed on running walker. Whole litter of nice hounds and grand pups did well also. Unfortunately today is another story. It is very hard to get some of these coonhound bred pups to run a deer. At least the ones I own. So yes my eyes have seen genetics work. That is why I prefer the genetics of today over the genetics of yesterday for coonhounds. A lot of the problems you read about on here have been bred out of several lines of dogs. A man should not have a problem getting one to hunt today, tree today and leave junk alone. Now possums and armadillos might be an issue down here. But deer generally is not.

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When I first signed up on this forum I read about pups that never ran fast game…or that they never ran deer…and they were practically self started on coon…that never made sense to me…I felt most well bred hunting pups like all game especially fast game…

I once read an article in the full cry magazine where this one dog man said if his pups didn’t bay cows at 4 months he culled them because they wouldn’t make the kind of hunting dog he wanted…I felt the same way…

As I said earlier in the beginning when I read about these straight coon dog pups it was hard to believe because it didn’t make sense to me…

Years later, once I started reading about Epigenetics and all the breakthroughs scientists are making from around the world with so many different experiments and scenarios…I then realized that is how these coon dog puppies evolved or are evolving…it makes sense to me now…

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I get what your saying Bruce but I will add something. You have to pick your poison. I finally found a dog about 3 years ago that I don’t have to adjust on for missing. I’m not saying there not many out there but there few and far between. Almost all these dogs I’ve bought and hunted with regularly over the last 10 years will gamble when coon treeing gets tough. In other words they get frustrated when they can’t finish a track and tend to gamble and vary rarely have them when they do. What most hunters are doing is making them cull tracks. If a dog likes to track more than they like to tree they want do that. But when you breed for that you have more dogs that will of course run junk and have to be broke of it. I had rather have a dog to train that was a big hunting wild running dog that will tree than this crap everyone’s breeding for that’s lucky to be a true 30% accurate.

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I get what your saying Bruce but I will add something. You have to pick your poison. I finally found a dog about 3 years ago that I don’t have to adjust on for missing. I’m not saying there not many out there but there few and far between. Almost all these dogs I’ve bought and hunted with regularly over the last 10 years will gamble when coon treeing gets tough. In other words they get frustrated when they can’t finish a track and tend to gamble and vary rarely have them when they do. What most hunters are doing is making them cull tracks. If a dog likes to track more than they like to tree they want do that. But when you breed for that you have more dogs that will of course run junk and have to be broke of it. I had rather have a dog to train that was a big hunting wild running dog that will tree than this crap everyone’s breeding for that’s lucky to be a true 30% accurate.

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