Registered: Nov 2011
Location: Freeport,TX
Posts: 1988

I would like for this thread to keep coming to the top when more dog hunters have an idea they propose and more importantly the why’s and the why nots to go along with it.
I thought to name this title “Perceptive Thinking” but I think perceptive thinking is the prelude to theoretical thinking, and theoretical thinking is a form of analytical thinking as well…some people are really strong in these areas and some are not…I believe when one person is strong in one area that they will be weak in other areas…
My first thoughts are to talk about what I considered to have been my once in a lifetime dog, which I named Yeller…he was born in my back yard and he showed me things that were very unusual even at 10 weeks of age…this pup excited me and sometimes I just shook my head…
I also had a dog at that time who was his uncle named Smoke that was a top dog as well…when Yeller was around ten months old he and Smoke were neck and neck in hunting ability with yeller having the talent in finding a little quicker than Smoke…these two dogs competed hard against each other and Smoke hated Yeller which had a lot to do with their competitive natures…
Analyzing why Yeller could find quicker…he had a better nose; he could drift a track and not straddle it much…he would make a loop and find the hot end of the exit tracks…he hunted with his head up always looking and ran the track the same way…Smoke kept his nose closer to the ground but not like a cold nosed hound…
Since then, I have had at least 6 or more dogs I considered to be top hunting dogs and even though I only bred yeller once I bred to his son named Buck many times, all the dogs were out of Buck or Bucks sons or daughters or great granddaughters…
So for many years I tried to pin point the difference between Yeller and all my other dogs…I searched the internet for the answer but could not find it…I would think on it a while and stop as I usually do on hard things…one day boom it hit me…the answer was so simple…the difference between a once in a lifetime dog and a top hunting dog is “BRAIN POWER”…the question now is what higher level of reasoning are these dogs born with if we can call it that…

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Training dogs is not so much about quantity, it's more about timing, and the right situations...After that it's up to the dog....A hunting dog is born...

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I was once told by a top breeder back in the 80s that if I ever got into breeding dogs, always breed for brains. You can teach a smart dog anything but you can never teach a dog to be smart. I have culled a lot of dogs that could lead another mans kennel just because I found them to be stupid. The most common comment that I have gotten bout anything comming from my house is that they have a head full of sense and learn very quickly. Just my 2 cents worth.

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Registered: Jan 2004
Location: Northwest Georgia
Posts: 1630

Now this is a post i 100 percent agree with.
Smarts over emotions is the difference, you can tell people all day long, but until they experience themselves they just shake there head.
Some hounds are controlled by emotions and few by smarts, the smart ones are the ones that become legends.

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Registered: Nov 2011
Location: Freeport,TX
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The “breeding Females” thread got me to thinking in starting this thread I been wanting to start for a while now…
One day…I finally decided that if I wanted good hunting dogs that I needed to breed my own…finding the right dogs is not easy but that is another story...
Once I had my goals figured out, I started my program…I am not writing the steps I took…that would take a book, however I will hit a few points…I was breeding for a certain color but that went out the window pretty quick…I expanded to certain colors that I liked quite a bit but with minimal white on all dogs…I also wanted perfectly built conformation but I lowered my standards on that as well…I kept a few I liked very much for hunting and baying ability that I knew I would never breed because of a few faults…But in an emergency I could and would breed them without hesitation on account I knew the parents, grand parents and sometimes great grandparents…it would be much better to breed to one of these than to go out and find another line of dogs that could possible bring problems to the bloodline…aggression was not tolerated…
Over the years I came to a conclusion that changed how I thought…I thought dogs could have the ability to reproduce themselves and many others have thought the same as I have…the articles I read didn’t really say much other than animals can reproduce themselves and if they meant to say reproduce better than themselves, I never caught it much less understood it…
Over the years of breeding that line of dogs…I started to see that some of these dogs hunted harder and had more grit than the previous dogs…I knew I selected as best I could for natural ability, doing so by testing in different ways…I didn’t need to do much just enough to learn how they thought and worked…
So how could dogs from the newer generations hunt harder, have more grit and are excellent locators?
One day the theory started coming together but this one is a little questionable…this is probably questionable to many, but it makes good sense to me…
When a pup has a natural drive to find or to wind and to go find…and that pup has the natural drive to go bay and bay tight…then this pup more than likely has the genetic make up to exhibit more hunt and grit as it progresses…how could that be?
My thinking has evolved to this…DNA and genes are surrounded with other components that enhance certain traits, or perhaps these genes or components are tied to the trait…and without us knowing it when we select for certain traits, we are also selecting for other traits without realizing the extras we received in the process…I believe that intelligence is tied in to the natural traits I am talking about…
Some breeders breed and then keep a pup and raise it and feed it lots of tracks to make a hunting dog out of it…even work extra hard at it to get results…then they breed this dog and guess what…they are gravitating towards average in their breeding program…
I think the pups should be observed and tested for natural ability at a very young age…and then at 6- thru 8-months cull if necessary…keep two or three and observe and test as they progress and make the best selection possible from those…
Picture a redbone hound litter…the pups are from golden yellow to mahogany red and all in between in color…if mahogany red were a trait tied to a top coon dog everyone would have a mahogany red redbone and possibly a darker shade of mahogany…I see hunting traits in the same way…but not as visual especially at a young age…

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Training dogs is not so much about quantity, it's more about timing, and the right situations...After that it's up to the dog....A hunting dog is born...

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Registered: Nov 2011
Location: Freeport,TX
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A pup that has strong natural instincts to wind, trail, locate and tree and that naturally ranges out will probably grow up to be a good hunting dog in the right hands…
are some of these traits tied to intelligence or are they an indication of intelligence? I think the right answer is probably both…
But while we do not know for sure we just breed our dogs as best we can and then retain the best pups that we possibly can choose…because we do not know for sure…then we fall back on our logic “the best defense is a good offense”, when we don’t know what to do, we do what we know what to do…and do it as best we can…
When we take 3 or 4 pups to the woods for the first time and one pup immediately takes to the woods at a run and the others follow…they make a short loop and come back and keep hunting around…usually it will be the same pup leading them around each time out…this lead pup will probably be a keeper and more than likely one that will get bred one day…this pup is showing intelligence and does not need a partner to go hunting…he can lead a pack around or just hunt alone…no problem…the next time leave that pup at home and see what the others do…
When we have a pup like this one it is overly exciting…especially if he or she is the complete package, the size, conformation, color, 2nd or more generations of our dogs, and the right demeanor…
I always say great dogs do not need to be fed lots of tracks to be good dogs…but to take them to a higher level one must hunt them a certain amount…to take them to their highest potential we as dog handlers but always be thinking strategy…when and where to cast, and why etc. etc… for some people it is their priority and is one of their first loves to do all the right things in training…for others they just want a good hunting dog and that is ok…
Even the pro football players…they can look good anytime with minimal practice…but to compete in their class they must train to the best of their ability and to win the Super Bowl they must be the best and have excellent coaching…practice does not make great…perfect practice will accomplish better results…it is the same with our hunting dogs…
A small percentage of high school football players make it to a major college to play ball…an even smaller percentage make it to the pro’s…
Finding those great dogs is about the same but should be easier on account we can breed them for success…we don’t do that with football players…

However we must know when it is time to let go…feeding lots of tracks and doing all we can to make an average hunting dog takes time and the results won’t be “making a top hunting dog”…and worse yet someone will breed this dog…some folks will not waste too much time on this dog much less breeding to it…

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Training dogs is not so much about quantity, it's more about timing, and the right situations...After that it's up to the dog....A hunting dog is born...

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Registered: Nov 2011
Location: Freeport,TX
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A while back I saw a documentary about wild animals…something I picked up from what was said is that lion cubs and other baby animals such as carnivores go through several stages of fear when young…
I spent a little time trying to connect the dots as to why…the first stage the fear is for good reason…if they venture too far from their nest, they will be easy prey for eagles and other predators…
The second stage they are now older…but they are not physically or mentally mature even though they are bigger and stronger…if they are in the hunt this fear is there to protect them from getting hurt until they mature and gain more experience and agility…if hunting moose or elk they could get kicked or gored…
The pups and cubs who do not conform to these laws of nature will not live long enough to breed…some may get lucky and make it but the group is evolving towards the normal…over time they will conform to those laws…not by choice but adhering to the laws of nature…

I have been watching a nest of shrikes in my back yard…one of the baby birds jumped out of the nest and landed a few yards from me…I have seen many baby birds that have fallen out of the trees in my back yard and they usually don’t make it…I tried putting the baby shrike somewhere safe but he kept jumping out…I couldn’t reach the nest so I set him outside my fence while the mama bird was close by…I set him out on account when I turn my dogs loose in the back yard they will kill it…I am willing to bet this baby bird will not make it…
There were 4 other baby birds in the nest…
I am now thinking…Why did the baby bird jump out of the nest? Was it pushed out by the other siblings, was this baby bird not competing well enough for food so in desperation he abandoned the nest hoping he will get something to eat from it parents from a different location? Was he too smart for his own good and decided to fly the coop too early…the right answer is probably that it could not compete with it’s siblings for enough food and jumped in desperation trying to survive…this is one of nature’s laws…
” survival of the fittest” …

We as humans breed dogs to suit us, and we will nurture the weak and we encourage the pups to be bold…we breed for it…we select those that explore and show less fear…they are not in the wild so we can override mother nature…but hog dogs and bear dogs that are too gritty will not live long…finding the ragged edge is not that easy in a breeding program…
If dogs were turned loose in the wild, they would evolve back to be more like the wolf…
Knowing the 2 fear stages of wild predators can really help us when training and socializing puppies…we just need to be careful and keep it as positive as possible…just read the pup…
If a pup reacts negatively to a training situation we should back off…if we comfort and pet him up he will think that reacting negatively is what we want…he or she sees our comforting them as a reward so they will learn to react accordingly due to our ignorance…instead, ignore the pup and let him or her get over it on their own own…when the pup acts and does it right then we pet him up real good…
Of course we must make an effort to have positive outcomes from each training session…

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Training dogs is not so much about quantity, it's more about timing, and the right situations...After that it's up to the dog....A hunting dog is born...

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Registered: Jul 2003
Location: PA
Posts: 2161

quote:

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Originally posted by COONDOG
I was once told by a top breeder back in the 80s that if I ever got into breeding dogs, always breed for brains. You can teach a smart dog anything but you can never teach a dog to be smart. I have culled a lot of dogs that could lead another mans kennel just because I found them to be stupid. The most common comment that I have gotten bout anything comming from my house is that they have a head full of sense and learn very quickly. Just my 2 cents worth.

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Registered: May 2016
Location: Palatka, FL
Posts: 5106

How in the heck do we really know if a dog has brains. Because he does something correctly. Because he can figure out how to get a gate open. Climb out of a pen when his kennel mate can't. I have seen test set up for pups to get from point A to point B through and around a maze of fencing. If they do that does that make them smart.

Look at all these agility dogs. I am sure those that do that can see a separation in the dogs mental ability to perform. But I will also bet if there is a difference in ability in one dog they trained compared to another one. It would be the age they started working with them. Laura Bell who visits here cold probable chime in on dogs Brains. She might even tell me I don't know what I am talking about. But that is alright also. Because the truth is what we are looking for. Think about this. Which dog did you own have the most brains. The first one you tried to train as a coonhound or the first one you tried to train as an agility dog. Probably the last one you trained. Why, because you as the trainer probably got better at what you did and started the last dog earlier and correctly.

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Registered: Nov 2011
Location: Freeport,TX
Posts: 1988

100% Agree

quote:
Originally posted by COONDOG
I was once told by a top breeder back in the 80s that if I ever got into breeding dogs, always breed for brains. You can teach a smart dog anything but you can never teach a dog to be smart. I have culled a lot of dogs that could lead another mans kennel just because I found them to be stupid. The most common comment that I have gotten bout anything comming from my house is that they have a head full of sense and learn very quickly. Just my 2 cents worth

quote:

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Originally posted by honalieh

This is very good advice (and it doesn't just apply to dogs).

A key factor is having the ability to recognize it!!!

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Training dogs is not so much about quantity, it's more about timing, and the right situations...After that it's up to the dog....A hunting dog is born...

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Registered: Nov 2011
Location: Freeport,TX
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Many years ago I kept a pup because she was a very pretty red color…we were going through a training exercise with the pups we kept…her siblings were really baying and focused on the task at hand…she was right there but did not even pay any attention to what was going on at the bay…she was given a chance and no go…in that litter there was a black pup…he was a ten for looks…nice head and ears and about perfect conformation…at that time that color was not part of my goal…I gave that pup to an acquaintance…he had cats out at the ranch and when I let that pup out he treed a kitten on a fence post and he was about 10 weeks old…at that moment I regretted giving that pup away…
The red pup lacked the desire to bay or catch game which in my opinion was not making a good hunting dog…I don’t really care that maybe one day the switch will click on…
Even though the black pup was around 10 weeks old, and he had traveled over a hundred miles with another pup, in unfamiliar territory and never seen a cat before…he had the inclination to tree the kitten…
My thinking is that the black pup is smarter than the red pup…the senses are tied to the nervous system which includes the brain…
So maybe the black pup saw and smelled the kitten, saw, and heard the kitten bow up and hiss…the senses sent the messages to the brain and that triggered the pup’s brain to send signals to respond in certain ways…
Some will say the black pup is exhibiting excellent instincts and the red pup, a lack of…I think it is a form of instinct and intelligence combined…there are genes and other components involved as well…
It is a no brainer on which pup to keep…

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Training dogs is not so much about quantity, it's more about timing, and the right situations...After that it's up to the dog....A hunting dog is born...

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Registered: Sep 2009
Location: Monticello, Wi
Posts: 779

Intelligent dogs do not require repetitive actions to learn and remember.
Once is all it takes and this can be a problem with owners and handlers that loose their temper and aren't smarter than the dog.
Intelligent dogs do NOT require repetitive stimulations to learn and remember. Ken Risley

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Registered: Nov 2011
Location: Freeport,TX
Posts: 1988

My thinking is almost the same...doing the right things at the right time, enough exposure without overdoing it...the desire can be to please the handler or maybe themselves...the drive to want game...

Earlier in the previous post I mentioned the training steps and in the exact same order as mentioned....

If I were to break them off of cows and deer before I taught them that it was ok to bay and catch pigs...then the pups won’t go after pigs and then we are disappointed and thing go downhill from there...if we break them off of cows and deer first the pups just might fear all game thinking all game is off limits...put them on the right game first...

If the first time in the woods the pup gets disciplined for running off game it just might get the wrong message...the pup might shutdown and we will be tripping over it and we will wonder why he won’t cast out...teach the pup to love the woods first...

Thinking like this makes a hunting dog pretty quick out of a good pup....

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Training dogs is not so much about quantity, it's more about timing, and the right situations...After that it's up to the dog....A hunting dog is born...

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Registered: Sep 2009
Location: Monticello, Wi
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I've corrected 6 week old pups from fighting over the feed plan and later discovered that I broke them from ALL types of fighting! Even from fighting the game that they chased.
You are absolutely correct in your analysis of how very important it is that the sequence of motivational steps of training is critical and especially with highly intelligent dog.

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Registered: Nov 2011
Location: Freeport,TX
Posts: 1988

I've made the opposite mistake and let them battle it out to establish the pecking order when they started acting out at about 4 months or so, it didn't work for me...as they got older they got along fine but not in the dog box and a few not at the bay...I tried it that one time and it had lasting effects...

I am thinking your method is a better method just figure out why they backed off from the coon...

I try to make sure they get along at the feed bowl too...the bowl is big enough for all to eat alongside each other and I keep watch...

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Training dogs is not so much about quantity, it's more about timing, and the right situations...After that it's up to the dog....A hunting dog is born...

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Registered: Sep 2009
Location: Monticello, Wi
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I have ZERO tolerance for aggressive behavior between dogs anywhere. I made the mistake by being too harsh with my correction before I gave positive reinforcement for aggression toward the game that I wanted them to chase.
*Keep the feed plan full so they don't have a limited quantity.
*Gentle hold the pup upside down on its back in the feed pan and let the other pups eat.
I completely agree with your Theoretical Theory.

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Registered: Nov 2011
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Incredible chain of events…
Years ago in the workplace we started and implemented a concept that we called “incredible chain of events”…when an upset condition or an out of control situation happened, or even when making a bad decision that led to an unplanned or unforeseeable event that started the “incredible chain of events”…we would meet in the conference room afterwards and follow the process leading to the unplanned event…it usually started as a small thing that no one noticed until it became a bigger and negative event…I liked the concept but it went by the wayside…
Back to the dogs…some folks know that in dog training it is especially important in doing the right things in the right order and the right length of time in getting the best outcomes…we really do not know for sure on the exactness on account different breeds and strains may require adjustments as to when and how long, just naming a few things…
Simple things made hard…
I used to feed the pups first and then let them out to play…the idea was that they could empty out while playing while I washed the kennel down…there would be less clean up at the next feeding and the pups would be in a cleaner environment…
Well, the pups did not like the kennel as much as the big back yard…so they started dodging me refusing to come to the kennel…this is where the incredible chain of events started and progressed towards more negativity…eventually they got big enough that I could not catch them…they learned they could outrun me… and they were learning they didn’t need to obey…
So, I was thinking there must be a better way…then the idea hits and I realized I would have to wash more often but no big deal…
Again, in the right order…
Turn the pups out on an empty stomach and let them play and have a good time while they worked up an even greater appetite…I played with the pups and called them to me and petted them etc…etc…
I very seldom play with my pups just enough for a handle and a good relationship…if they are doing their own thing, I do not interfere…I want them to hunt alone without me programming them to stay close…
I prepped their meal and as I set it down, I called and clapped my hands as if I were calling the big dogs out of the woods…as the pups came running, I gave a hand signal and boldly said to kennel…
So, I theorized and analyzed my learnings…let’s see, no negatives at all but a few positives that were setting the stage for other staging scenarios…the immediate learnings…I became the pup’s best friend and they trusted me enough to come when called…they were learning the call out of the woods…they were learning to kennel…
Remarkably simple yet very effective…

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Training dogs is not so much about quantity, it's more about timing, and the right situations...After that it's up to the dog....A hunting dog is born...

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Incredible chain of events…
Years ago in the workplace we started and implemented a concept that we called “incredible chain of events”…when an upset condition or an out of control situation happened, or even when making a bad decision that led to an unplanned or unforeseeable event that started the “incredible chain of events”…we would meet in the conference room afterwards and follow the process leading to the unplanned event…it usually started as a small thing that no one noticed until it became a bigger and negative event…I liked the concept but it went by the wayside…
Back to the dogs…some folks know that in dog training it is especially important in doing the right things in the right order and the right length of time in getting the best outcomes…we really do not know for sure on the exactness on account different breeds and strains may require adjustments as to when and how long, just naming a few things…
Simple things made hard…
I used to feed the pups first and then let them out to play…the idea was that they could empty out while playing while I washed the kennel down…there would be less clean up at the next feeding and the pups would be in a cleaner environment…
Well, the pups did not like the kennel as much as the big back yard…so they started dodging me refusing to come to the kennel…this is where the incredible chain of events started and progressed towards more negativity…eventually they got big enough that I could not catch them…they learned they could outrun me… and they were learning they didn’t need to obey…
So, I was thinking there must be a better way…then the idea hits and I realized I would have to wash more often but no big deal…
Again, in the right order…
Turn the pups out on an empty stomach and let them play and have a good time while they worked up an even greater appetite…I played with the pups and called them to me and petted them etc…etc…
I very seldom play with my pups just enough for a handle and a good relationship…if they are doing their own thing, I do not interfere…I want them to hunt alone without me programming them to stay close…
I prepped their meal and as I set it down, I called and clapped my hands as if I were calling the big dogs out of the woods…as the pups came running, I gave a hand signal and boldly said to kennel…
So, I theorized and analyzed my learnings…let’s see, no negatives at all but a few positives that were setting the stage for other staging scenarios…the immediate learnings…I became the pup’s best friend and they trusted me enough to come when called…they were learning the call out of the woods…they were learning to kennel…
Remarkably simple yet highly effective…

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Training dogs is not so much about quantity, it's more about timing, and the right situations...After that it's up to the dog....A hunting dog is born...

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Registered: Nov 2011
Location: Freeport,TX
Posts: 1988

Staging for Success…
First let’s discuss a common trait all predators have…the wolf, mt lion and many others make a kill and eat what they can, and then they go find a quiet spot to sleep until it is time to go hunting for their next meal again…they awaken and as their hunger increases the senses become more focused on the hunt…in reality it is that way for most every living thing that eats…
It took me a while to think through what I thought would work in training the pups…once figured it out I put a name on it even though it is so simple…I call it Staging for Success…most things are simple when we figure out the system order…also how much to feed and how long to train is all part of that order…
You want the pups very hungry…usually right before the first feeding in the morning…you don’t want to over feed the treats…just enough to make them really want more and if we increase the want to in them then they will have total focus on the task at hand…
I used to buy a few packs of beef liver and partially seared and cut it in ½” squares…I would take a small handful to the kennel and walk up to the pups…always from the upwind side…I want the pups to use their nose to wind…I tease them a little as they are standing on their rear feet and just make them use their nose and let them have an occasional lick…I then give each pup one piece…I repeat two more mornings…the stage for success has been set…
The next time in the morning before the first feeding as usual…I walk by from the upwind side along the kennel and the pups are fired up and wanting their treat…I tease them a little and then I walk away about twenty feet and in a 30 feet area I scatter plenty of treats for each pup to get at least 3 treats…I watch the pups for about a minute to see if there is a pup or two winding the liver treats in the yard…I then open the gate and see if any pup has the snap to go search…I then hiss and clap the pups on to hunt…I watch to see how they circle and hunt…I watch to see which pup finds the most…all this info is recorded…usually it’s the same pups who will score the best on each outing over a period of time…
They say that pups learn their best between birth and 16 weeks…I believe it starts before birth…
At least I can analyze the simple exercises I put my pups through…they are learning to wind and learning to use their nose to find…they are also learning my hunt and search command…
I am also learning which pups find the most naturally and which pups winded naturally with the best results…I use this in helping me select the pups with the natural inclinations that I’m looking for…if we select this way each time in a breeding program it will pay off over time…happiness is the pups we like the best are also scoring the best…

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Training dogs is not so much about quantity, it's more about timing, and the right situations...After that it's up to the dog....A hunting dog is born...

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Registered: Nov 2011
Location: Freeport,TX
Posts: 1988

Breaking Pups to Gunfire…

The puppies now know what treats are and once they smell the treats, they immediately focus on finding them…I’ve conditioned them to react this way and I will use this to my advantage…

One morning I let them out as usual…they are out playing and exploring the back yard…I step in the house and am watching them through the back door…I then get enough treats for each pup to get two treats…I step out the door and call the pups as I would call the dogs out of the woods…they come running and each pup gets a treat as they are jumping up on their rear legs wanting more…I pet them up real good and I go back in the house…I want them to go back to what they were doing…I want them to like me but I don’t want them hanging around me for too long…
now they know that when I call them I might have a treat…I stage the same scenario as the day before except now I have the 22 revolver with caps…I call and fire one cap…as they are running to me I fire one cap as I keep calling…they come and I praise them as they smell the treats…the treats take the focus off the firing caps…I watch carefully in making sure they are ok with it…

The second day the same scenario….

The third day I fire three or 4 caps…the first two as before…the third cap I fire high over my head and pet the pups…if they are ok I fire a fourth in their mist…I pet them up and give them their treats…again I am always reading the pups as I don’t want to make any mistakes…the fourth cap discharged in their mist and they got a nose full of burning gun powder…
I repeat the fourth step in a few days…I am usually ok with this many times on account they will be broke to gunfire quite easily later if not already broke with these sessions…I also have repeated the last step a few more times a month later or so with better results…
Breaking 10 week old pups to gunfire is pretty easy…however, I have never tried it on just one pup…usually it is 4 or more pups…

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Training dogs is not so much about quantity, it's more about timing, and the right situations...After that it's up to the dog....A hunting dog is born...

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Registered: Jan 2006
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I've used 2 small 2x4 and slap them together before and during feeding time they sound much like a gun or pistol and never had a problem with gun shy pups also use feeding time to discipline pups etc hate ill natured dogs

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