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8up
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Jun 2016
Location:
Posts: 52

UKC needs to change the rule for the Dogs sake

Thermal Imagining should be legal to use as a tool but not to score of course. Anything that helps find a treed coon is only a tool to help a dog get the points he deserves.

How is it different than a squaller or a bright light instead of a lantern.
After all isn't that why were out there ? We strive to see which dog was the best that night.

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05-22-2021 09:28 PM

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ClayBottom11
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Nov 2014
Location: Central Virginia
Posts: 155

Can you imagine the fall-out when you can see a thermal image of a ‘Coon sized critter up the tree but not without? Cant get him to look and can’t see any fur through the leaves, can’t plus it. Then you’re just putting pressure on cast members to vote plus because they see something on the thermal. I can see the advantage of showing you to where look for him and focus on that spot but could also lead to more issues in the woods. Cast member getting sour when his tree got circled because no Coon seen but he’s got an image on thermal, etc..

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05-22-2021 10:15 PM

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harleydan1956
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Jan 2011
Location: Canton, Ohio
Posts: 2601

quote:
Originally posted by ClayBottom11
Can you imagine the fall-out when you can see a thermal image of a ‘Coon sized critter up the tree but not without? Cant get him to look and can’t see any fur through the leaves, can’t plus it. Then you’re just putting pressure on cast members to vote plus because they see something on the thermal. I can see the advantage of showing you to where look for him and focus on that spot but could also lead to more issues in the woods. Cast member getting sour when his tree got circled because no Coon seen but he’s got an image on thermal, etc..

Or someone that doesn't have one and the owner only uses it on his dogs tree... No everyone can afford $2,000 to find a coon. Will run the older hunters out of the hunts.

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05-22-2021 11:57 PM

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Burchel Davis
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Jun 2004
Location: mark center ohio
Posts: 98

Thermal

How is that any different than a guy that can afford a garmin or a guy that can’t?

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05-23-2021 12:50 AM

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houndsound
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Dec 2003
Location: Sheridan, WY
Posts: 1162

The price will be dropping on them significantly every year. But I don't see that as a factor. Some people can afford nicer dogs, GPS's, better boots, brighter lights, etc.... than other can.

You have to see the coon to score it... nothing about helping find the coon should be discouraged. I don't see why they wouldn't be encouraged. Even IF (and I doubt it would happen at all, certainly not frequently) IF someone only used their thermal on their tree, and not mine.... it does not make it any harder to find the coon in my tree.

Using technology for more accurate results should be encouraged. Remember the big debate and re-hunt at the UKC world hunt several years ago? Just think if all dogs had a GPS collar and their hunt was monitored and recorded at the club house somehow... never would be a question as to what dogs were where at any time.

I'd like to see a broadcast of GPS locations live for major events, a UKC app that had digital score cards for the judges. And yes... thermals to help confirm the most ACCURATE information possible.

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05-23-2021 01:34 AM

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Dogwhisper
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Feb 2005
Location:
Posts: 1744

Until "thermals" r handed out to every handler at the onset of a hunt...(which will never happen)..there putting "poor" handlers at a disadvantage...
Rite now the thermal doesn't level the playing field...... much less if a handler has one and "only" uses it to his/her advantage.
Keepm out of the hunts until their affordable to every one ......

On the flip side maybe..... just maybe that's the intent or just a casualityto weed out the "poor souls".....lol.

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05-23-2021 02:11 AM

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Cory Highfill
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Oct 2004
Location: Clarksville, AR
Posts: 1077

Yall kill me with the excuse that not everybody can afford one. The sky was falling when they allowed the Garmin, some couldn't afford it, the old guys were gonna quit, and it was an unfair advantage, etc...

Not everyone can afford the same quality light. Or truck to drive. Or dog to hunt. Is it unfair when a money man's handler shows up with a dog they bought for 20 grand and beats old Hi Bawl that little Johnny bought from the local dog trader for $300?
Should the guy with the best light use it to find your coon because you ordered a $79.95 Nite Lite?
It's a tool. It won't find the coon that isn't there. And so long as you have to physically see the coon that you located with it, it shouldn't be an issue.

And just for the record, I've never even used one of them. Rant over, lol.

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05-23-2021 03:57 AM

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ClayBottom11
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Nov 2014
Location: Central Virginia
Posts: 155

quote:
Originally posted by Cory Highfill

Not everyone can afford the same quality light. Or truck to drive. Or dog to hunt. Is it unfair when a money man's handler shows up with a dog they bought for 20 grand and beats old Hi Bawl that little Johnny bought from the local dog trader for $300?
Should the guy with the best light use it to find your coon because you ordered a $79.95 Nite Lite?
It's a tool. It won't find the coon that isn't there. And so long as you have to physically see the coon that you located with it, it shouldn't be an issue.

And just for the record, I've never even used one of them. Rant over, lol.

I agree with you that price shouldn’t be considered on this, or who can afford it. We all have better or not as good of gear as the next handler already.. dogs included lol.. my point was the issue of swallowing those circle points when the thermal shows something up in that high branch cluster of leaves. I’ve seen fits thrown over less, just like anybody else probably has.

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05-23-2021 04:10 AM

Dave Richards
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Posts: 5738

quote:
Originally posted by Cory Highfill
Yall kill me with the excuse that not everybody can afford one. The sky was falling when they allowed the Garmin, some couldn't afford it, the old guys were gonna quit, and it was an unfair advantage, etc...

Not everyone can afford the same quality light. Or truck to drive. Or dog to hunt. Is it unfair when a money man's handler shows up with a dog they bought for 20 grand and beats old Hi Bawl that little Johnny bought from the local dog trader for $300?
Should the guy with the best light use it to find your coon because you ordered a $79.95 Nite Lite?
It's a tool. It won't find the coon that isn't there. And so long as you have to physically see the coon that you located with it, it shouldn't be an issue.

And just for the record, I've never even used one of them. Rant over, lol.

X2, It has NEVER and WILL NEVER be a level playing field in any Hunt. We will always have the situation of better dog/s, better training, better lights, better squallers, etc., just as Corey has suggested. Some folks can just find more coons than others, is that unfair? Thermals might just level the playing field as to finding coons if they are there. Dave

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05-23-2021 04:12 AM

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Cory Highfill
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Oct 2004
Location: Clarksville, AR
Posts: 1077

quote:
Originally posted by ClayBottom11
I agree with you that price shouldn’t be considered on this, or who can afford it. We all have better or not as good of gear as the next handler already.. dogs included lol.. my point was the issue of swallowing those circle points when the thermal shows something up in that high branch cluster of leaves. I’ve seen fits thrown over less, just like anybody else probably has.

You're absolutely right about some folks throwing fits when they know a coon is in a tree and they can't show it to the cast or make it look. They're the same people that throw a fit when the time catches a dog they treed through the country because of their Garmin shows it, and the cast can't hear it.

When I was a kid, I drew an older man who had me beat dead to rights. As the time ran down, my pup unloaded right in front of us, and was under a coon way out on a limb. Plussing that coon put me ahead. That man could have screwed me around a dozen different ways but he was a man of character. He plussed me up, shook my hand, and sent me back to get my first cast win. He simply said "That pup was under more coons, tonight he wins." Case closed.
That left a deep impression on me. And for as long as I go to hunts, I'll always advocate for the dog that trees the most coons, even when technology is necessary to prove it.

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05-23-2021 05:14 AM

Cory Highfill
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Oct 2004
Location: Clarksville, AR
Posts: 1077

quote:
Originally posted by Dave Richards
X2, It has NEVER and WILL NEVER be a level playing field in any Hunt. We will always have the situation of better dog/s, better training, better lights, better squallers, etc., just as Corey has suggested. Some folks can just find more coons than others, is that unfair? Thermals might just level the playing field as to finding coons if they are there. Dave

Yes sir. I've gone almost as blind as I am deaf in middle age, and I can't imagine how bad it will be for me in another 30 years. If I can spend a little money and not go home wondering if I treed a coon I probably will. No more hunts than I attend it probably wouldn't matter much, but I just dont see how not scoring every possible treed coon levels the playing field any.

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05-23-2021 05:19 AM

PreacherTom
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Feb 2021
Location: NW Arkansas
Posts: 136

quote:
Originally posted by Cory Highfill
Yes sir. I've gone almost as blind as I am deaf in middle age, and I can't imagine how bad it will be for me in another 30 years. If I can spend a little money and not go home wondering if I treed a coon I probably will. No more hunts than I attend it probably wouldn't matter much, but I just dont see how not scoring every possible treed coon levels the playing field any.

Cory I agree with all you've said about using a thermal in competition. It can't find a coon that is not there and when it finds one you still have to see it with your eyes. What you said about getting older is very true. I have 72 year old eyes and I love my thermal. Only bad thing is that on some of these leavy trees that in the past I would have walked away from saying "I bet it's there" now I leave saying "I bet it's not there" or even "dumb dog missed again". Lol

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05-23-2021 02:49 PM

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Cory Highfill
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Oct 2004
Location: Clarksville, AR
Posts: 1077

quote:
Originally posted by PreacherTom
Cory I agree with all you've said about using a thermal in competition. It can't find a coon that is not there and when it finds one you still have to see it with your eyes. What you said about getting older is very true. I have 72 year old eyes and I love my thermal. Only bad thing is that on some of these leavy trees that in the past I would have walked away from saying "I bet it's there" now I leave saying "I bet it's not there" or even "dumb dog missed again". Lol

Yes sir. I had to completely re-evaluate how I judged my dogs when the Garmin came along, and I am sure the thermal will be much the same.

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05-23-2021 05:19 PM

T Felderman
UKC Forum Member

Registered: May 2005
Location: Bellevue, IA
Posts: 1874

quote:
Originally posted by harleydan1956
Will run the older hunters out of the hunts.

The Garmin already did that. Jmo

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05-23-2021 05:25 PM

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Roy Grant
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Registered: Dec 2013
Location:
Posts: 1518

So if you use the thermal to find coon to plus them up, do you minus them if it is not found?

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05-23-2021 06:11 PM

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Roy Grant
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Registered: Dec 2013
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Posts: 1518

So if you use the thermal to find coon to plus them up, do you minus them if it is not found?

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05-23-2021 06:12 PM

houndsound
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Dec 2003
Location: Sheridan, WY
Posts: 1162

quote:
Originally posted by Roy Grant
So if you use the thermal to find coon to plus them up, do you minus them if it is not found?

Of course not... and you know that. A thermal tool does not confirm there is or is not a coon in a tree. It can give you an indication where you should be looking, and it may not. You obviously can't and would not plus a tree because a "red" image is seen on a thermal... and you wouldn't minus the tree because the thermal tool does not show an image.

Just like the rules say... you have a certain amount of time to look for a coon. If you can find it, and see it.. you plus the points- with or without a thermal tool. If you can't... you determine if there is a place the coon could be hidden, and determine if it is slick or circle. The thermal tool changes none of that.

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05-23-2021 07:16 PM

harleydan1956
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Jan 2011
Location: Canton, Ohio
Posts: 2601

quote:
Originally posted by Roy Grant
So if you use the thermal to find coon to plus them up, do you minus them if it is not found?

Exactly. I have seen these handlers want a leafy tree no bigger than my leg circled. If a Thermal was worth it, it would HAVE to show a heat spot. No possibly of a hole or hiding place, betting no minus would be issued.
Best way to find a coon, hunt with the leaves off. And a Garmin, could be bought for $400-$500.. a thermal.. 4x as much. With y'all's reasoning, money should win. A $2,000 truck will get you to the woods, a nite light will help you find a coon.. and youngsters just Getting into it... if you buy a $20,000 dog, good for you,. But also betting you ain't hunting local club hunts. Or even in the same class as the old folks... Or youngsters.. or just someone that doesn't have money to travel the continent going to hunts.. but change the rules for a select few..

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05-23-2021 07:37 PM

Sfox91
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Aug 2019
Location: East central indiana
Posts: 159

Make it the same rule has the leading kennel club has. If you have a thermal, use it. Must physically see coon with majority of casts eyes or non hunting judge to plus it. I’ve shoved my phone in several dens, and I’ve used my thermal on competitors trees and I got the same in return. People not wanting to allow them are just jealous they can’t afford them. Shouldn’t hold it against somebody that has the means the have new/fancy gadgets. I guided a cast for a breed days last weekend and offered my thermal to the cast but nobody even took me up on it.

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05-24-2021 01:09 AM

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pamjohnson
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Feb 2012
Location: airville,pa
Posts: 2078

I don't own a thermal but I feel it would be best to allow them. If ukc wants to stay competitive they will get with the flow of things.
Garmin has been a blessing for all old and young alike. Now we walk the right direction to and from the dogs easily.
I was just beat in a hunt by a fellow that was very slow walking and the whole cast was waiting on him. But he won fair and square. He didn't use any excuses of Garmins or any of that. He will be heading to the zones this fall.

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05-24-2021 01:31 AM

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Jack Bingham
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Aug 2006
Location: Montour IOWA
Posts: 1722

I agree let us use them. they are good and bad. i've been in some higher end entry hunts and never had a problem. The good is helping find the coon quicker. the bad is knowing it's there but can't plus it because you can't see it with your eyes. In a world hunt last year 3 of us seen it in our thermals but couldn't put an eye on it tree was circled and we moved on.

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05-24-2021 07:09 PM

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shadinc
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Jun 2014
Location: Louisiana
Posts: 3447

I don't see why you need a rule for this. You can't score with it. Just bring it and if you find the coon tell everybody else where to look. What's the harm?

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05-24-2021 11:35 PM

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Jack Bingham
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Aug 2006
Location: Montour IOWA
Posts: 1722

quote:
Originally posted by shadinc
I don't see why you need a rule for this. You can't score with it. Just bring it and if you find the coon tell everybody else where to look. What's the harm?

BINGO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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05-24-2021 11:40 PM

Dave Richards
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Apr 2015
Location: church hill tn
Posts: 5738

quote:
Originally posted by Jack Bingham
BINGO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

X3, Its just another tool, no different that a better light or better equalled. We should be able to use anything that helps us score a tree correctly. No guessing or getting it wrong if we can help it, still got to see the coon to score, but it should at least be better than nothing. Dave

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05-26-2021 03:35 AM

Nathan Phenix
UKC Forum Member

Registered: May 2017
Location: West Plains Mo
Posts: 471

quote:
Originally posted by shadinc
I don't see why you need a rule for this. You can't score with it. Just bring it and if you find the coon tell everybody else where to look. What's the harm?

So what is the rule? Your scratched if you have thermal? I dont own one but I'm all for letting folks use them. MOST hunts is won by what's on end your leash and between your ears. Not gadgets!

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05-26-2021 05:24 AM