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Maybe some of you who study such things can riddle me this.
Why is it that every pup in a litter may be way above average and you can make the same cross and get the pups in the same hands as the first litter and every one in litter 2 needs culled.?

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quote:

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Originally posted by elvis
Maybe some of you who study such things can riddle me this.
Why is it that every pup in a litter may be way abov average and you can make the same cross and get the pups in the same hands as the first litter and every one in litter 2 needs culled.?

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Could be a lot of things,but I've heard hard core breeders say the first cross is the best one on a gyp,and maybe just the way the genes come together.

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I have always wandered the same thing. I spent lots of money on various second cross proven matings. I have came to decision that if I can’t get first cross I will just wait on the third cross if they make one. I have had some good third cross dogs

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If the litters were reversed chances are the second cross would never be made to get the good ones.

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Elvis,

I'm no breeding expert, but I believe each individual egg and sperm have different DNA
Combinations.

That's why you can get such variation of color, conformation and aptitude within a single litter not just different litters. Lightening rarely strikes twice. Same with DNA it seems

A stud or female who is said to be prepotent allegedly passes on the desired traits a high percentage of the time.

Hardwood Bozo comes to mind easily for me. Bred to a few bitches and established several "strains" of Walkers.

Lipper as well comes to mind. Bred to everything and produced a few good dogs that established some strains of Walker.

Which of the two was a prepotent stud?

It's easier to give the credit to the male dog as they are promoted and can produce far more pups than a single female. But I believe there are females out there that make average stud dogs famous. Apologies for rambling

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If the litters you mentioned were factual litters. I would say the Environment had something to do with it.

The mother dog passes chemical signals to her puppies through her milk and her mothering style. Pups that receive more licking, cleaning and attention from their mother grow up to be more confident.
Litters born in summer or winter if conditions are harsh are affected by the stress and chemicals the mother produces from that stress.

We overthink who the sire is going to be and think we are finished. When the most important thing that can be done, is control the environment from the time the Mother is bred right on up to when the pups are trained and reach an age of over a year old.

Maybe the first litter the female has, they take special care of the Mother. Her food, her housing. Then she did so well the owner gets sloppy with the second litter. That my friends can make a difference.

Did the environment make a difference in the litter you described. I don't have a clue. But I know it can in any litter someone else is planning on having. Do more than plan who the dad is going to be. Plan the care of your pups from the initial breeding on.

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Last edited by Bruce m. Conkey on 02-04-2018 at 02:26 PM

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You are going way deep in this, Way to much thinking. Don't know if we can keep up with you on this one.

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HL in all seriousness. All those lectures on dogs you went to and they never discussed the importance of the females environment form breeding to whelping then weaning the pups. Very important time in a pups/dogs life. Thats it in a nut shell.

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quote:

---

Originally posted by elvis
Maybe some of you who study such things can riddle me this.
Why is it that every pup in a litter may be way above average and you can make the same cross and get the pups in the same hands as the first litter and every one in litter 2 needs culled.?

---

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Very much so The care and health of the female is up most importance and further more the life and up bring of the pup by the mother and owner is and does have a BIG influence in the development of the pup.
BUT the thought and understanding of your statement takes us to another level of dog caring and training. WHEW how did I get brought into this discussion. TREE MY ROOSTER

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I would suspect that the pups from the second cross never got singled out and hunted by themselves at a young age because the owners liked their pups from the first cross too good to leave them at home. Most pups that aren't hunted a lot by themselves at a young age never reach their full potential.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Travis Brown
I would suspect that the pups from the second cross never got singled out and hunted by themselves at a young age because the owners liked their pups from the first cross too good to leave them at home. Most pups that aren't hunted a lot by themselves at a young age never reach their full potential.

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I would suspect that the pups from the second cross never got singled out and hunted by themselves at a young age because the owners liked their pups from the first cross too good to leave them at home. Most pups that aren't hunted a lot by themselves at a young age never reach their full potential.



I think this is very possible. I have a 2.5 year old that I have hunted since he was 11 months old. I like him. I have and 11 month old that has been running and treeing since he was 7 months old and might be a special hound but I don't hunt him like the 2 yr old because I've got the two year old. In a nut shell, he has gotten a fair chance.

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Duane Kreklow has had 3 pups out of 3 litters out of Penney and Rex and they were all alittle different, but all coondogs by 12 months old and all similar in personality. Better than the average old dog at that age. Duane is very consistent in his technique with the main one being that he spends time with them each day.
I have not had the results that Duane has had and it is because I do not give each pup daily time that I should as I have tried to train too many at once. My techniques have not been consistent.

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What about a female bred to 3-4 different males and produced better than average in each litter? Dave

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quote:

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Originally posted by elvis
Maybe some of you who study such things can riddle me this.
Why is it that every pup in a litter may be way above average and you can make the same cross and get the pups in the same hands as the first litter and every one in litter 2 needs culled.?

---

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quote:

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Originally posted by elvis
Maybe some of you who study such things can riddle me this.
Why is it that every pup in a litter may be way above average and you can make the same cross and get the pups in the same hands as the first litter and every one in litter 2 needs culled.?

---

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An old guy I used to hunt with named Donnie Lamb raised a good litter of English dogs back in the say.

Four Grand Nites came out of the litter.

Penny's Dancin' Disco and Willow Creek Golden Bugle were two of them.

They were out of Nt.Ch. Don's Platte Valley Ringo and Lamb's Spring Creek Sis.

After the first litter turned out so well, he had a long list of guys wanting pups out of that cross so he made it again.

That time,he didn't hunt Sis any after he bred her. Too valuable.

The first litter he hunted her hard until her pregnant belly nearly drug the ground.

The first litter was a cut above the second.

He always thought it was because he hunted her so hard while she carried the the first cross.

That was the only difference.

If children in the womb benefit from their mothers reading to them and playing classical music, it is reasonable to believe that hunting a female carrying pups could benefit them.

Just anecdotal and not scientific, but worth pondering.

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quote:

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Originally posted by John Carroll
An old guy I used to hunt with named Donnie Lamb raised a good litter of English dogs back in the say.

Four Grand Nites came out of the litter.

Penny's Dancin' Disco and Willow Creek Golden Bugle were two of them.

They were out of Nt.Ch. Don's Platte Valley Ringo and Lamb's Spring Creek Sis.

After the first litter turned out so well, he had a long list of guys wanting pups out of that cross so he made it again.

That time,he didn't hunt Sis any after he bred her. Too valuable.

The first litter he hunted her hard until her pregnant belly nearly drug the ground.

The first litter was a cut above the second.


He always thought it was because he hunted her so hard while she carried the the first cross.

That was the only difference.

If children in the womb benefit from their mothers reading to them and playing classical music, it is reasonable to believe that hunting a female carrying pups could benefit them.

Just anecdotal and not scientific, but worth pondering.

---

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http://forums.ukcdogs.com/showthrea...ighlight=Reuben

this thread talked about some of these theories about environment, proper handling and socializing but it was mainly about during gestation...thinking outside the box...new and fresh ideas sometimes cause a knee jerk reaction and then once we think on it awhile...it sometimes starts making sense...

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I find the answer in the fact that you find the need to ask the question. I’ve recognized from all these many years of involvement with hounds, there are no proven crosses. We realize the first breeding may “prove” to be good but to use the term “proven cross” as a guarantee that future matings of the same pair will produce like results is wishful thinking at best.

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I think it’s cause we have such high hopes or expectations for the 2nd litter! I think same goes for when people breed frozen semen to females n the sire has been dead for many years!

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The reason is simple ... well not completely simple. The idea is simple, but the reasons are complex. The potential variability in canine genes is immense!

To see that simple fact, look at all the different breeds.

Then consider another fact that mother nature is programmed to default towards variability of genes. Guys and gals breeding towards a specific outcome is plain ole hard!

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quote:

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Originally posted by Steve Fielder
I find the answer in the fact that you find the need to ask the question. I’ve recognized from all these many years of involvement with hounds, there are no proven crosses. We realize the first breeding may “prove” to be good but to use the term “proven cross” as a guarantee that future matings of the same pair will produce like results is wishful thinking at best.

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