Registered: Mar 2012
Location: Southwest MI
Posts: 236

Got my bloodlines yesterday and had some people ask me to post the performance point standing and reproducers standings and did I miss something or is it true it only take 1 titled dog out of 100 pups to make the reproducers list for redbone males!?!? HOW EMBARRASSING! 3/20 for the females isn’t as bad but still pretty weak guys and girls People would rather breed 12 below average females that shouldn’t have pups to begin with and maybe one or 2 females worth passing on genes to get to 100 and make 1 nitech and make it on the list!? Why even have a list if all you need is a 1/100 average to be top 10....think it says a lot about the guys in the breed pushing stud dogs when we’re barely above leopards and plots when it comes to reproducers. What do you think the problem is king or Kelly or anyone for that matter? where’s the kink? What’s stopping the flow of consistent winners throwing above average coondogs? Why is our numbers some of the worst in any breed? Is it worth even getting on the list if you’re embarrassed by the numbers you have? and why hasn’t this been brought up before? shouldn’t a strong reproducers list be the only goal EVERY redbone Breeder owner or handler should be able to agree on? Isn’t THAT the most important thing honestly?

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Jesse Boley
Check us out at "moonlight redbones" on facebook

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Registered: Oct 2010
Location: Christiansburg,VA
Posts: 6289

Several ways to look at it I guess especially for the females like how many are alive or how many are in the hands of competition hunters or all all them old enough to hunt yet same can be said for the males but out of a 100 it should not influence them as much plus you need to consider the program parameters are maybe there are some males or females that maybe better reproducers and do not make the list

But it is a helpful tool for breeding especially if you study what the dogs on the list are out like how many dogs in there back grounds have made the list in the past or on it now but if you want to compare them with other breeds and how they do than we should all be hunting walkers

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Thomas Jefferson

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Location: Marion, Indiana
Posts: 4280

I really think UKC should consider making some changes to their reproducer lists...because things have changed drastically since the criteria was created for the reproducer lists.
1. The historical 25 years and they drop off requirement.
For living stud dogs....that made sense because it gives every one of their direct offspring a dogs lifetime to fully have the chance to title. But now a days....because of the wonders of science and frozen semen...stud dogs can go on reproducing for many years after the 25 year mark. If a dog is a great reproducer and continues to sire litters ....its relevance as a reproducer is still valid and valuable to breeders and should be shown on the historical list. This problem will only get worse now that 80% plus of relavent studs have semen collected and frozen for future use.
2. In most breeds besides walkers and English in this day and age...studs will be lucky to produce over 100 pups during their natural lifetime. This 100 pup minimum that is required before your stud can make the list is absolutely too high, not realistic, and is actually working against the breed. Too many stud owners breed too many females that should never be bred just to get to that 100 pup requirement. This is actually lowering their percentage of pups that are of the quality that can and will title out. And isn't the whole point of these lists to provide useful information for breeders and pup purchasers to make better choices???
20-30 years ago...when we had lots more hunters and less information than we do these days...it was not uncommon for many good Redbone studs to actually produce 400 to 900 pups in their natural lifetime.
Fireball, Winchesters Zac, Billy the Kid, Bomber, Rusty Red etc. Those days are gone...forever. today's studs...even with the future use of frozen semen will be lucky to break 200 offspring and that number probably won't even be reached until they are dead or no longer able to breed naturally.
So Maybe UKC needs to consider the changing dynamics of the coonhound world and modernize it's reproducer lists and requirements. They are a great tool...but with out dated minimum requirements...they are a double edged sword that is doing more harm than good in that many stud owners feel the need to breed females they shouldn't just to reach a minimum requirement that makes no sense anymore.
3. Females from our breed and other breeds consistently show that they can, when bred correctly...produce quality pups that are good enough that 25-70 percent can eventually earn a nite hunt title....double or triple the percentage of the best studs in all breeds.
I don't believe that females reproduce better than males...
I believe that the breeders who own really good females choose the studs they will breed them to much more selectively and carefully than stud owners choose what females they breed to.
Listen....redbone people, this is something we can absolutely improve upon. It would help if UKC would lower the total number of offspring a stud has to produce to about 40-50 to make the list...but even if they don't. If you own a stud...dont lower your standards and breed for quantity....raise them and breed for quality!
Here is a little hard truth for the folkes reading this...
Not many people who own redbone studs are actually being paid stud fees...lets be honest. Most females are bred for free or for a pup or two. So its not like your going to lose a bunch of money...and in the end, fewer pups of higher quality is what will raise our breed as a whole and help us be more competitive.
I know for a fact that if you went and looked at studs with only 40 or more pups produced...you would see and breeders would be able to identify much better reproducers because as Kelly Hyde proved a couple of years ago by paying out of his own pocket for lists like this...some of the Redbone breeds highest reproducing percentage studs of titled offspring are not shown on the reproducer lists because their owners are breeding them very selectively and they have not reached (and may never reach) that 100 pup minimum requirement.
To us Redbone follows who are breeders or purchasers of pups....which is more useful information to you when making your choice....
Seeing a list of dogs where they all have over 100 pups and most have only 1 to 3 pups out of a hundred that have titled...
Or
Seeing a list of dogs that show studs with only 40 or 50 pups and some already have 3,4 or 6 or 7 have made Nite Champion and a few are maybe even Grand Nite already???
Wasn't the reproducer lists developed to identify reproducers early on while they are still useful and helpful to breeders who are trying to plan crosses?
Why handicap ourselves with outdated criteria that puts pressure on many breeders and stud owners to reach a hollow minimum just to make the lists?

__________________
Shane Maxey
Proud lifetime member of the NRA
Banshee Wildlife Products
Hoosier Outlaw / Moonlight Redbones
1994 American Redbone Coonhound Association Hunter of the Year
My first 3 redbones raised from pup's were:
Dual Gr.Ch. Outlaw Billy the Kid
Dual Gr.Ch.- PKC Ch. Outlaw Timber Girl
Dual Gr.Ch. Outlaw Scarlett Fever
(((( Current Favorites ))))
2013 AKC Ladies World Champion
Gr.Nt.Ch.- PKC Ch- AKC Ladies World Ch Ky Moonlight Breanna
Gr.Nt.Ch. - PKC Ch. Ky Moonlight Woody
Dual Grand Moonlight Deana
Dual Grand Ch.- PKC Ch. Moonlight AfterShock
Dual Grand Nighty Night Amber
Gr.Nt.Ch. Moonlight Big Time Britt
Gr.Nt.Ch Outlaw Billy Jean
Gr.Nt.Ch-PKC Ch.-2015 PKC Red Days Champ Outlaw Cherry Bomb
Gr.Nt.Ch Outlaw Breeze
Gr.Nt.Ch.Gr.Ch. All Grand Outlaw G-Man (over $20.000 won in PKC & CHKC) 2019 Southern Redbone Days Overall Champion
Gr.Nt.Ch. Moonlight Outlaw Mac
Gr.Nt.Ch. Classy Cali (Heavy Outlaw bred)
Gr.Nt.Ch. Moonlight Cat Scratch Fever
Gr.Nt.Ch. Moonlight Addiction
Gr.Nt.Ch. Moonlight Overdose
Gr.Nt.Ch. Moonlight Jinx
Gr.Nt.Ch. Moonlight Banshee
"Always outnumbered...Never outgunned!"
To enjoy lots of pics and videos of out redbones, find me on Facebook
as Shenandoah Maxey

Last edited by Hoosier Outlaw on 10-04-2017 at 09:48 PM

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Registered: Aug 2004
Location: Chattanooga, Tn
Posts: 22586

Slick you are right, it is pretty embarrasing. And we could either change the criteria for the lists to make them look better, we could make more Redbones Nt Ch or we could breed better reproducers. The reproducers lists are a numbers game. Maybe the walker guys know how to play the game better than most of us. It is kinda like the all grand pedigree game.

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Registered: Oct 2012
Location: east ohio
Posts: 1277

Guess its all how you look at it some think 1 world champ out of 200 is a great reproducer some think 5 night champs off one cross and none off 10 other litters is a great reproducer
And some think if you have great % and get a really nice hound off every litter your cheating lol

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mark marshall

favorits ive hunted and or owned
grnt nighty nite moonlight kate rip
grnt moonlight pepper ann
Grnt jackpot Jackie rip
grnt rocky top jet
ntch moonlight katie rip
ntch moonlight madona
ntch beaver creek blaze rip
ntch moonlights dirty danny b.rip (ntch moonlight kink x ntch sawblade reckon)
Current
Grnt moonlight ky Kate (grnt ranger x grnt moonlight Kate
Ntch Pr beaver creeks easy peezy three 1st place wins (jet x moonlight Bree)
Pr beaver creeks moonlight coon buster ( moonlight shock x moonlight Bree)

Last edited by mmarshall on 10-04-2017 at 10:15 PM

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Registered: Jun 2010
Location: Marion, Indiana
Posts: 4280

Here is an example of how much selective breeding can improve a dogs percentage.
My old dog Dual Grand Ch Outlaw Billy the Kid
Born in 91' I sold him in 95 to Roy Jeffries.
In 1993 Billy was the first Redbone to ever have semen collected and stored. I did not sell the semen when I sold Billy. In 2011, John Biggert approached me about breeding to Billy semen and Amber was bred and had pups. At that time Billy was on the reproducer list with over 500 pups produced and 19 titled 4 of which were Grand Nites.... so he had a very low reproducer percentage....as does every dog that has ever produced over 400 pups.
Now I know why it was low....Roy wanted a stud dog and when he bought Billy... he made the most of him. He bred him to just about anything that was brought...as did everyone else in those days.
But I knew Billy was bred to reproduce and that low percentage he had was heavily impacted by a lot of sub par, low quality females he was bred to. So after Amber was bred with frozen semen in 2011...I decided to do an experiment and I laid this out on one of my posts during that time. I decided to only use frozen Billy semen on a few of the best redbone females I could breed and keep track of those pups and a few years down the line ....figure up the percentage on those very selective breedings to prove the point that if stud owners would only breed quality females...they could double or triple the reproducing percentages of their studs.
Well, since 2011 I have used frozen semen from Billy the Kid on 6 High Quality Grand Nite Champion females and they have produced 28 pups (some were older females who had small litters) and the last of those pups are nearing 3 yrs of age.
The results...
28 pups, 21 of which made it to adulthood
9 have earned titles
5 made Grand Nite Champion
4 are still Nite Champion and a couple might finish to Grand with a little more time
So a stud on the list who was bred to everything and hovered around 3% titled offspring is then selectively bred to 6 different females and those offspring title at over 30% (closer to 50% if you only count the ones that lived to be adult dogs)....and....include some really big winners of multiple Redbone Days and world championship Redbone titles.
There is the proof...for those who want to see it. I am not saying it's because of who the stud is....I think any good stud would benefit and improve its numbers from careful selective breeding. This is why it is so important that we as a breed start to recognize how important it is to not just produce pups because we can....but to only produce the best quality of pups that we can.

__________________
Shane Maxey
Proud lifetime member of the NRA
Banshee Wildlife Products
Hoosier Outlaw / Moonlight Redbones
1994 American Redbone Coonhound Association Hunter of the Year
My first 3 redbones raised from pup's were:
Dual Gr.Ch. Outlaw Billy the Kid
Dual Gr.Ch.- PKC Ch. Outlaw Timber Girl
Dual Gr.Ch. Outlaw Scarlett Fever
(((( Current Favorites ))))
2013 AKC Ladies World Champion
Gr.Nt.Ch.- PKC Ch- AKC Ladies World Ch Ky Moonlight Breanna
Gr.Nt.Ch. - PKC Ch. Ky Moonlight Woody
Dual Grand Moonlight Deana
Dual Grand Ch.- PKC Ch. Moonlight AfterShock
Dual Grand Nighty Night Amber
Gr.Nt.Ch. Moonlight Big Time Britt
Gr.Nt.Ch Outlaw Billy Jean
Gr.Nt.Ch-PKC Ch.-2015 PKC Red Days Champ Outlaw Cherry Bomb
Gr.Nt.Ch Outlaw Breeze
Gr.Nt.Ch.Gr.Ch. All Grand Outlaw G-Man (over $20.000 won in PKC & CHKC) 2019 Southern Redbone Days Overall Champion
Gr.Nt.Ch. Moonlight Outlaw Mac
Gr.Nt.Ch. Classy Cali (Heavy Outlaw bred)
Gr.Nt.Ch. Moonlight Cat Scratch Fever
Gr.Nt.Ch. Moonlight Addiction
Gr.Nt.Ch. Moonlight Overdose
Gr.Nt.Ch. Moonlight Jinx
Gr.Nt.Ch. Moonlight Banshee
"Always outnumbered...Never outgunned!"
To enjoy lots of pics and videos of out redbones, find me on Facebook
as Shenandoah Maxey

Last edited by Hoosier Outlaw on 10-04-2017 at 10:29 PM

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Registered: Aug 2004
Location: Chattanooga, Tn
Posts: 22586

Sounds like we need more good females.

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Registered: Aug 2004
Location: Chattanooga, Tn
Posts: 22586

Oh my goodness Slick, your comments are a little misleading. While the studs at the bottom of the list don't have very good #'s, the top 4 have just as good percentages as the walkers. We have quality but not the quantity. But that is nothing new.
And the same is true for the females. The top 4 have some pretty good #'s.

Last edited by Richard Lambert on 10-04-2017 at 11:19 PM

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Location: Marion, Indiana
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quote:

---

Originally posted by Richard Lambert
Oh my goodness Slick, your comments are a little misleading. While the studs at the bottom of the list don't have very good #'s, the top 4 have just as good percentages as the walkers. We have quality but not the quantity. But that is nothing new.
And the same is true for the females. The top 4 have some pretty good #'s.

---

__________________
Shane Maxey
Proud lifetime member of the NRA
Banshee Wildlife Products
Hoosier Outlaw / Moonlight Redbones
1994 American Redbone Coonhound Association Hunter of the Year
My first 3 redbones raised from pup's were:
Dual Gr.Ch. Outlaw Billy the Kid
Dual Gr.Ch.- PKC Ch. Outlaw Timber Girl
Dual Gr.Ch. Outlaw Scarlett Fever
(((( Current Favorites ))))
2013 AKC Ladies World Champion
Gr.Nt.Ch.- PKC Ch- AKC Ladies World Ch Ky Moonlight Breanna
Gr.Nt.Ch. - PKC Ch. Ky Moonlight Woody
Dual Grand Moonlight Deana
Dual Grand Ch.- PKC Ch. Moonlight AfterShock
Dual Grand Nighty Night Amber
Gr.Nt.Ch. Moonlight Big Time Britt
Gr.Nt.Ch Outlaw Billy Jean
Gr.Nt.Ch-PKC Ch.-2015 PKC Red Days Champ Outlaw Cherry Bomb
Gr.Nt.Ch Outlaw Breeze
Gr.Nt.Ch.Gr.Ch. All Grand Outlaw G-Man (over $20.000 won in PKC & CHKC) 2019 Southern Redbone Days Overall Champion
Gr.Nt.Ch. Moonlight Outlaw Mac
Gr.Nt.Ch. Classy Cali (Heavy Outlaw bred)
Gr.Nt.Ch. Moonlight Cat Scratch Fever
Gr.Nt.Ch. Moonlight Addiction
Gr.Nt.Ch. Moonlight Overdose
Gr.Nt.Ch. Moonlight Jinx
Gr.Nt.Ch. Moonlight Banshee
"Always outnumbered...Never outgunned!"
To enjoy lots of pics and videos of out redbones, find me on Facebook
as Shenandoah Maxey

Last edited by Hoosier Outlaw on 10-05-2017 at 12:16 AM

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Registered: Aug 2004
Location: Chattanooga, Tn
Posts: 22586

Is the glass half full or half empty?
Are there only 10 Redbone studs with 100 pups?

Last edited by Richard Lambert on 10-05-2017 at 12:25 AM

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Registered: Aug 2004
Location: Chattanooga, Tn
Posts: 22586

Slick, are you going to put the list on here for everyone to see?

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Registered: Jun 2010
Location: Marion, Indiana
Posts: 4280

Well....if there are more than 10...then they have 1 or less titled pups....so that is depressing in itself.
But I know there are studs out there with less than 100 pups that have many nt.ch. and grand nite champions...take Rocky Top Jet for example. He doesn't even show on the list...but the cross between him and my female Breanna has produced 5 titled pups (1 gr.nt.ch. and 4 nt.ch. so far)
He also has titled pups from other females...but doesn't make the list because of outdated requirements...
Wouldn't others like to know studs like him are out there and reproducing at pretty impressive percentages?
As a breeder, I know I find that very valuable info

__________________
Shane Maxey
Proud lifetime member of the NRA
Banshee Wildlife Products
Hoosier Outlaw / Moonlight Redbones
1994 American Redbone Coonhound Association Hunter of the Year
My first 3 redbones raised from pup's were:
Dual Gr.Ch. Outlaw Billy the Kid
Dual Gr.Ch.- PKC Ch. Outlaw Timber Girl
Dual Gr.Ch. Outlaw Scarlett Fever
(((( Current Favorites ))))
2013 AKC Ladies World Champion
Gr.Nt.Ch.- PKC Ch- AKC Ladies World Ch Ky Moonlight Breanna
Gr.Nt.Ch. - PKC Ch. Ky Moonlight Woody
Dual Grand Moonlight Deana
Dual Grand Ch.- PKC Ch. Moonlight AfterShock
Dual Grand Nighty Night Amber
Gr.Nt.Ch. Moonlight Big Time Britt
Gr.Nt.Ch Outlaw Billy Jean
Gr.Nt.Ch-PKC Ch.-2015 PKC Red Days Champ Outlaw Cherry Bomb
Gr.Nt.Ch Outlaw Breeze
Gr.Nt.Ch.Gr.Ch. All Grand Outlaw G-Man (over $20.000 won in PKC & CHKC) 2019 Southern Redbone Days Overall Champion
Gr.Nt.Ch. Moonlight Outlaw Mac
Gr.Nt.Ch. Classy Cali (Heavy Outlaw bred)
Gr.Nt.Ch. Moonlight Cat Scratch Fever
Gr.Nt.Ch. Moonlight Addiction
Gr.Nt.Ch. Moonlight Overdose
Gr.Nt.Ch. Moonlight Jinx
Gr.Nt.Ch. Moonlight Banshee
"Always outnumbered...Never outgunned!"
To enjoy lots of pics and videos of out redbones, find me on Facebook
as Shenandoah Maxey

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Registered: Mar 2012
Location: Southwest MI
Posts: 236

Don’t get me wrong I don’t compare redbones to walkers much and I agree with you if you wanna compare go get a walker but with the redbones being such a small tight knit group why can’t we pull off better numbers? You can say yeah getting pups in the right hand makes a difference and it does...but I think that’s an excuse we use to much in the breed. I agree with Shane I’d like to see it moved to 25 for females and 50 for males to promote the idea of quality over quantity but one issue comes to mind when I think of redbone studs compared to other breeds is why the heck aren’t these stud promoters buying back or training dogs OUT OF THERE OWN STOCK? When I see someone buying adds in bloodline or the red book or Facebook but every time you see them at a hunt they’re never hunting something out of it. THATS the problem I see it’s not that every dog has to get to comp hunters hands it’s that people don’t stand behind what they’re selling. Scott Engle or Dave dean (for you bluetick fans out there) are ALWAYS hunting and promoting a dog out of mojo or hammer You know why OUR female numbers are just as good as any?....because every one of those females has a breeder standing behind them and putting in work behind the dogs they make. Think about it what’s shane, Danny, John sr, Brent Peel/Brian, Randy, Keith Scott Perkey Richard and Jared and Rob Childers have in common other then all owning some of the top reproducers of the time according to the book? Every time you see them at a hunt or see a picture of them in bloodlines winning THEYRE HUNTING DOGS OUT OF THEIR DOGS that’s a common denominator in all the breeds. you don’t need a comp hunter to own every pup heck most of the best pup trainers are terrible handlers you just gotta be willing to put in effort getting them and putting titles on them for those guys who don’t care for the hunts but got one good enough to win

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Jesse Boley
Check us out at "moonlight redbones" on facebook

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Registered: Nov 2015
Location: st. augustine Fl
Posts: 311

Go.back to your August edition ! Only 7 redbone males made the list I got the subscription so I could do my research and conclusions . I read it every month and compare notes numbers and area I highlight for future reference . A good solid redbone sure seems hard to come by . I am waiting to see if my female took . Wanted to do performance program 100 $ at the beginning of the year or 300 $ at the end ? I will be doing super stakes instead . Free DNA kits and fast service . I don't know much about the reprodoucer list other then what I read but the # don't always look so great

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Work hard hunt harder .
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Registered: Aug 2004
Location: Chattanooga, Tn
Posts: 22586

Slick some people just see it as a #'s game. They don't necessarily want to just title a bunch of dogs, no matter what it takes, just to get their name in the book. At least that is what they tell me. And it is easy for me to hunt one out of "my own dogs" because I have so many that I claim.

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Registered: Jul 2004
Location: Nova Scotia
Posts: 2767

Richard are you saying there are that many good redbones out there that are just owned by pleasure hunters ? Really ?

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Friends don't let friends hunt blueticks

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Location: Marion, Indiana
Posts: 4280

quote:

---

Originally posted by Richard Lambert
Slick some people just see it as a #'s game. They don't necessarily want to just title a bunch of dogs, no matter what it takes, just to get their name in the book. At least that is what they tell me.

---

Funny how those same "titled" dogs win a lot of big hunts and produce a lot of big hunt winners...both trophy and money hunts...in many different states under many different handlers....year after year...think about that for a minute...
Maybe it's not about getting your name in the book....maybe, just maybe it is about producing better redbones.... Its like classic cause and effect. Breed and train better Redbones (cause) and you get your name in the book...when they win (effect)
There is always some excuse used by somebody sometime...
So if the reproducer lists don't mean anything...and the performance points lists don't mean anything...and the money hunt rankings don't mean anything...then what do we use to judge and measure Redbones?
Are we back to personal opinion as the measure of a dog?
Asking for a friend

__________________
Shane Maxey
Proud lifetime member of the NRA
Banshee Wildlife Products
Hoosier Outlaw / Moonlight Redbones
1994 American Redbone Coonhound Association Hunter of the Year
My first 3 redbones raised from pup's were:
Dual Gr.Ch. Outlaw Billy the Kid
Dual Gr.Ch.- PKC Ch. Outlaw Timber Girl
Dual Gr.Ch. Outlaw Scarlett Fever
(((( Current Favorites ))))
2013 AKC Ladies World Champion
Gr.Nt.Ch.- PKC Ch- AKC Ladies World Ch Ky Moonlight Breanna
Gr.Nt.Ch. - PKC Ch. Ky Moonlight Woody
Dual Grand Moonlight Deana
Dual Grand Ch.- PKC Ch. Moonlight AfterShock
Dual Grand Nighty Night Amber
Gr.Nt.Ch. Moonlight Big Time Britt
Gr.Nt.Ch Outlaw Billy Jean
Gr.Nt.Ch-PKC Ch.-2015 PKC Red Days Champ Outlaw Cherry Bomb
Gr.Nt.Ch Outlaw Breeze
Gr.Nt.Ch.Gr.Ch. All Grand Outlaw G-Man (over $20.000 won in PKC & CHKC) 2019 Southern Redbone Days Overall Champion
Gr.Nt.Ch. Moonlight Outlaw Mac
Gr.Nt.Ch. Classy Cali (Heavy Outlaw bred)
Gr.Nt.Ch. Moonlight Cat Scratch Fever
Gr.Nt.Ch. Moonlight Addiction
Gr.Nt.Ch. Moonlight Overdose
Gr.Nt.Ch. Moonlight Jinx
Gr.Nt.Ch. Moonlight Banshee
"Always outnumbered...Never outgunned!"
To enjoy lots of pics and videos of out redbones, find me on Facebook
as Shenandoah Maxey

Last edited by Hoosier Outlaw on 10-05-2017 at 03:17 AM

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Donnie, I never said that there were that many good Redbones out there. But there are a few. And Shane some people use opinions but not necessarily personal ones. Myself, I use a combination of a lot of things as I have stated many times in the past.

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quote:

---

[i]Think about it what’s shane, Danny, John sr, Brent Peel/Brian, Randy, Keith Scott Perkey Richard and Jared and Rob Childers have in common other then all owning some of the top reproducers of the time according to the book? [/B]

---

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Posts: 3984

Most really good redbone stud dogs will be dead and gone before they really show what they can reproduce. If you have a good one get him collected!!!

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Registered: Mar 2012
Location: Southwest MI
Posts: 236

That wasn’t just a serious breeders or a list of the honest best reproducers of current (because I think if they made it 40-50 pups the list would look completely different and some dogs that should get the recognition would. that was a SMALL list of breeders who travel all over the country hunting a 3rd or 4th generation pup off there stud or “ol brood female” lol if I made a list for people doing it right and pushing pups off the stud it would be a much bigger list. I’m sure there’s more I was just trying to name drop a little bit for Richard lmao. Richard what ISNT a game? Redbone days is a game of who has more friends they say, the list is just a numbers game, the world hunt is a game, AO is a guide game there’s always a good excuse. I’m not saying your wrong most the dogs on the list are from guys who want there dog on it and sort through the pups find the ones good enough to win a couple casts make it a nitech and move to the next..but not all look at rabble and Kate more grands then nitech and more studs out there out of just those 2 then anything else combined dang near (like the redbone sackett jr)😂😂. And so what if the other dogs make it in on nitech that’s how the game is played that’s how pepper Ann took over The number one spot was pushing through a couple extra nitech that’s how it works we all know it but is there only a handful of guys who wanna play and actually promote the dog they spend hours blabbing about at redbone days or defending online or making up excuses for the guys at the water cooler as to why you lost? I hope not because that’s even sadder then the list itself

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Jesse Boley
Check us out at "moonlight redbones" on facebook

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Location: Christiansburg,VA
Posts: 6289

Interesting you want to raise the standards for the females and lower for the males is that so the males numbers can catch the females because if you look at all the females in all breed's there percentages are for the most part way higher than the males which is interesting maybe when buying that next pup we need to place more attention to the female than the male

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The democracy will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not. ~~ Thomas Jefferson

"A government big enough to give you everything you want, is big enough to take away everything you have"

Thomas Jefferson

"My reading of history convinces me that most bad government results from too much government."
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Registered: Aug 2004
Location: Chattanooga, Tn
Posts: 22586

Slick, you are right, it is all a game that we play. And some are serious about it and some just play. It all depends on your personality. Kind of like a nite hunt I guess. Some handlers are serious and some are just there to have fun. That is why you can't just take those lists at face value. But you do need to pay attention to them along with other factors. There are some awfully nice reproducers on the list but there are others like Jet that aren't. And look at Shock. He just now got up there and he can no longer be bred. Most dogs are 3 yrs old before they are titled so a stud is usually 6-8 yrs old before his first pups are old enough unless you retire them and start breeding them at 3 yrs old.

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Registered: Aug 2004
Location: Chattanooga, Tn
Posts: 22586

I can't believe that you think that I am a "serious" breeder. I have never had a dog on the Top Reproducers List. Either I am not very serious or I have never had a very good dog.

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Location: Southwest MI
Posts: 236

Female numbers should be higher considering you only need 1/5 of the pups to make a list I just suggested raising it Cuz I think a male should have to gal at least 2x the numbers of the females but honestly I think with the technology we have and being able to breed males so much longer from semen I think 50 is a little low I like that females get to a point and you should have to make a choice to either keep trying to win with them and sacrifice a few extra years of litters or start breeding em to the nice males and looking for the next big thing out of them and running for the reproducers list.

So here’s an interesting idea that just got spit balled what if they made the numbers for the CURRENT reproducers more obtainable for dogs that at currently living and live breeding like 10 for females and 30 for males and the HISTORICAL list more for the legacy males and females that have dogs still titling after that are dead and gone at the 20 for females and 60 for males? What would that do to the list. Wouldn’t that bring more attention to the dogs people should be breeding to but don’t know as much about?

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Jesse Boley
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