Registered: May 2016
Location: Palatka, FL
Posts: 5106

This is a two part statement and I sure can't explain it but I see it. Love to hear your opinion.

For those of use that have been around a while I think we can all agree that COONHOUNDS of all breeds have changed. Some more than others but I see the changes in all breeds.

One big change is independence. Back in the 70's they were about all pack hounds. In the 80's most were but the ones that won big were showing independence in them. That caught on and people in the 90's and 2000 started to train them to be independent. The one's previous to that were mostly a product of their genetics. Now is seems like a lot of the training has fell by the wayside and genetics make them independent today and some to a fault of being too independent.
Now if this was just walker dogs I could understand the genetic process but other breeds are following suit and Genetics doesn't happen by osmosis.

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Registered: Jul 2003
Location: Rincon,Ga.
Posts: 276

Well said Mr. Bruce. The first really independent dog I ever hunted with or against was the old Demon dog of Russ Bellars. He was the first, as they say, get in the country by himself with a coon type of dog I had ever hunted with. Now days it's getting to be kind of the norm.

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Registered: Aug 2004
Location: Chattanooga, Tn
Posts: 22586

Are they independant or anti social? Is this a physical trait or a psychological trait? I know that a dog's physical makeup is determined by his genes/DNA. But what determines a dog's psychological traits? I would think that first you would have to determine the answer to those questions.
It would probably be easier to look at humans since they have been studied a lot more. Then you could transfer your findings over to dogs. Is a person born with their "personality" or do they develop it?
Before you start, why do identical twins that are identical in all of their outward physical appearance, have different personalities?

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Registered: Dec 2004
Location: South Carolina
Posts: 112

It kind of sucks that it's the norm. We always trained our dogs that way and some it didn't work with as good. They just wanted to pack no matter what. Once we found 1 that could be made, it was pretty easy to win with as long as it was accurate. I was wondering the other day how it got to be in the genetics. We're there enough people looking for naturally independent to where they kept making the right crosses to get it? Andy bedgood probably remembers the dog that opened my eyes to what a hard going, independent dog could do if it had the meat. Opened my eyes to a lot of things. He was a natural that just happened but I learned quick you could make 1 too.

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Registered: Sep 2010
Location: New Paris, Indiana
Posts: 7076

The independent type dogs do the winning, have been for awhile now. So they are the dogs that get bred, their pups are the pups that get bought. As generations go by, you end up with more naturally independent type dogs and fewer pack dogs.
Winning dominates the breeding today. The pack dogs o today are coming from those specialized breeders that keep that trait going, the big game guys especially. And yes, I believe if you breed naturally independent dogs to each other exclusively for enough generations, independence is what you will get. I think the goal for many today, including myself, is to have independent dogs without having to train for it. Because if you have to train for it, you will have to constantly enforce it and that is what I prefer to get away from.

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Last edited by JiM on 11-17-2016 at 05:42 PM

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Registered: Jun 2003
Location: Talala, Oklahoma
Posts: 5208

I like one independent enough to hold pressure, hunt on their own, and not quit their track to back another dog.

But I don't like the dead loner/contrary type that don't like another dog with them.

If my dog isn't struck and your dog opens, ideally I want mine to go and beat yours treeing it's coon.

But I'm not a competition hunter really.

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Registered: May 2016
Location: Palatka, FL
Posts: 5106

Well Jim we have them and it is like catching a cold the other breeds by just being around them are getting it also. Thing is Genetics don't work that way. There has to be something in the tree dog genetics that morphed into independence. lol

Thing is these dogs also are presenting different training challenges that hasn't been written about.

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Registered: Feb 2004
Location: Ohio
Posts: 1513

I have found my modern day blueticks are much more independent than years ago. But! I have also found as long as you let them socialize with other dogs in the woods once in while they can work with another hound if one wants to work with them. Neither will go check another dog but if they happen to strike the same track then they can work and tree together. That is what I want.

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Registered: Jan 2013
Location: Marietta
Posts: 10790

I am breeding me up somthing to clean them coons up y'all's independent dogs are running past !! I know it works I was winning with one that does it last year ! If I was getting beat by a dog that was getting every last strike and most first trees I don't think I would brag on the independent stuff much plus some of y'all and me are to old to chase one to all 4 corners of the earth lol!

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Registered: May 2016
Location: Palatka, FL
Posts: 5106

So Ron are you saying that possibly it is the way we are hunting them which makes sense to me. I hunt mine pretty much alone or maybe one other dog. So I guess you could say, What should I Expect?

I think if your into comp hunting, that the two three or four guys getting together and taking 3 to 6 hounds hunting on a regular basis is a thing of the past.

Actually a lot of the hunting I use to do is a way of the past.
Walk Hunting
Pack Hounds
Close hunting dogs
Road Hunting
Just relaxing and sitting and listening to the hounds without your eyes glued to a Garmin.
Can't imagine the changes our dogs will go through in the next 30 years.

Was talking to a Mr. McQueen in Ga. today about road hunting. Something I loved to do but has went the way of the past. It was so interesting to watch the dog work and see it from the time it first smelled a track to it opened and you could see exactly how it straightened the track out. You could tell how it wagged it's tail if something was going to happen. By the end of the night you could tell how high he was carrying his tail if it was in shape or not.
It was amazing to see how some dogs seem to turn right at intersections and some turned left. Watching these dogs and trying to figure them out has kept my mind busy, many a day.

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Registered: Oct 2015
Location:
Posts: 132

Why is always about winning the hunts on here?

I believe that 80% of the hunters today do not participate in any kind of organized hunts.

I get sick of hearing about independent dogs how they get alone and have the coon no reverse if you have one of those kind of dogs in the mountains they would be no fun to hunt walk a mile to get to top of mountain and down to bottom and half way up other side to get to dog then back track same way you went use to own that type dog well most the time you ready to go home after such a trip.
Pleasure hunting is the name of the game friendship all night long and not wanting to be a cut throat from the time you leave the club house as most casts in a hunt will have at lest one of those type of guys in the cast win at all cost some one mad after every hunt so and so cheated so and so not my cup of tea any more.

More fun to pleasure hunt with friends I only want my dog going 500 yards then tone him back age plus distance to walk is a factor in these mountains.
More 500 yard drops you can make in a night more coons you are subject to tree
One last thing it has gotten too expensive to competition hunt a poor mans sport no more if you don't have money you better stick to pleasure hunting for to finish a dog out in just ukc I want name any other register .lol costs a fortune any more plus those that hit the money hunts see how many new faces do you see winning not very many if any.JMO.

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Registered: Jul 2012
Location: AR
Posts: 295

quote:

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Originally posted by Bruce m. Conkey

It was amazing to see how some dogs seem to turn right at intersections and some turned left.

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Registered: May 2016
Location: Palatka, FL
Posts: 5106

No, but if they went a way you didn't want them to go you just went your way and honked your horn.

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Registered: Jan 2005
Location: Michigan
Posts: 272

For what my opinion is worth I say it's the way that these hounds are bred today. My son and I have a line of Plott dogs that we use on bear and coyotes. These seem to be very pack minded dogs, and are happy to run with other hounds. I have a Plott male out of coon hound breeding and he is independent to a fault, he will run past another hound running a track and go strike his own. I believe it's just not the Walker dogs, It's how they are bred and what they are bred for. Mr. Bruce, please come on up here to northern Michigan. We have unlimited back roads to run your hound on or rig. You won't believe the amount of big country we have to hunt.

Shaun Paton
Chase Creek Kennels

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Registered: Feb 2004
Location: Ohio
Posts: 1513

I pleasure hunt hundred times more than I comp hunt. My independent blues don't blow out of the country, they don't pass up older tracks, they work with dogs if they strike with them or one wants to come into their strike. Independent does not mean unsociable. My independent blues will tree 10 feet from your dog with a coon not run the other way. My independent blues will hunt till they strike or untill I want to get my hands on them. Just saying they don't have to be stupid to be independent. A lot can be said about learning how to handle that kind of dog. Be smarter than the dog.

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Registered: Aug 2010
Location: ohio
Posts: 153

I think Mr. Lambert is on to something.
I have a dog now that has crossed the line from independent to anti social.
I have asked myself the question, is it nature or nurture?
Is it something in her genetics or how she has been hunted? Maybe some of both. She's been hunted a lot by herself. Then when I did hunt with someone she got a lot of face barking on the tree...

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Registered: Sep 2013
Location: tylertown,mississippi
Posts: 2552

I have a 16 month old male Bluetick that is as Independent as anything I have ever owned. He was Born that way. At 4 months old with other pups his age he didn't want to play and frolic in the yard with the others, he would shake them off and hit the woods exploring. I have hunted him with another older hound as much as I have hunted him by himself but 95 % or more when he trees he's alone. Made a trip to Illinois last month and just got back from another trip up there last week. Bam made 17 trees those 2 trips and only one time was he treed with another hound. He was only hunted by himself one night, the other nights he was hunted with another hound or a couple hounds. We shot a coon out another hound was treed on and he was 50yds away working a track and didn't come into the tree or kill. Two hounds caught one on the ground and fought it in a pond while Bam was treed 300yds away and he didn't budge. The last night of the hunt on the last drop him and a 6 year old Gr. Nt. got treed 500 yds deep and sounded like he was treed with her but got in there and they were 20yds apart and both had a coon. He was hooked Solid. I haven't trained him for this or hunted him alone to get this. All natural and born that way. I could tell at 4 months old by how mature acting and shaking off those other pups so he could hit the woods by himself that he was different than any pup I have fooled with but had no idea to what extreme independence was in this young hound. Would I change it? No Sir. They are pack animals by nature but we breed them to get under a coon as fast as they can, we don't breed them to listen to other hounds and run that way. I will take extreme independence to a fault over a me to'er any day.

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Registered: Jul 2004
Location: Nova Scotia
Posts: 2768

quote:

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Originally posted by John Carroll
I like one independent enough to hold pressure, hunt on their own, and not quit their track to back another dog.

But I don't like the dead loner/contrary type that don't like another dog with them.

If my dog isn't struck and your dog opens, ideally I want mine to go and beat yours treeing it's coon.

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Registered: Sep 2010
Location: New Paris, Indiana
Posts: 7076

I think independent and anti-social are two completely different things and unrelated. Any suggestion that independence leads to anti-social behavior is totally bogus.

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PKC CH/UKC GrNtCh Stylish Kate - 9/12/08 to 9/23/2016 R.I.P - Owners Sizemore/Martin
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Registered: Jan 2013
Location: Marietta
Posts: 10790

Some coonhunters won't hunt with anybody or their dog because they can't stand getting beat!! Hunter and dog become anti social jmo.

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Registered: Dec 2013
Location:
Posts: 1520

I will quote Timothy Ball. There is nothing better than a GOOD independent dog, and nothing worse than a BAD one. I agree with Bruce, and the hounds have changed greatly in other areas. TREE DOGS and seeing alot tighter mouth dogs. I have 6 decades in this sport.

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Registered: Aug 2007
Location: SE Iowa
Posts: 950

Does it have anything to do with the increase in coon population and the demise of the fur industry?

More coons allow more opportunity for a dog to go get their own.

One coon in a section, most dogs with any brains will get a piece of it.

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Registered: Sep 2010
Location: New Paris, Indiana
Posts: 7076

quote:

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Originally posted by yadkintar
Some coonhunters won't hunt with anybody or their dog because they can't stand getting beat!! Hunter and dog become anti social jmo.

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UKC Nite Champion Stylish Harry's Trixie - 2017 World Hunt Qualified - Owners - Sizemore/Martin
PKC CH/UKC GrNtCh Stylish Kate - 9/12/08 to 9/23/2016 R.I.P - Owners Sizemore/Martin
AKC/UKC NtCh Sizemore's Timber Jam Jeff 5/2/2000 to 1/22/2012 R.I.P.
AKC/UKC GrNtCh Sizemore's Timber Jam Jessi 12/21/04 to 1/21/2011 R.I.P.

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Registered: Jan 2016
Location: Bois d'Arc, MO.
Posts: 1823

quote:

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Originally posted by Ron Jackson
I pleasure hunt hundred times more than I comp hunt. My independent blues don't blow out of the country, they don't pass up older tracks, they work with dogs if they strike with them or one wants to come into their strike. Independent does not mean unsociable. My independent blues will tree 10 feet from your dog with a coon not run the other way. My independent blues will hunt till they strike or untill I want to get my hands on them. Just saying they don't have to be stupid to be independent. A lot can be said about learning how to handle that kind of dog. Be smarter than the dog.

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Registered: Nov 2007
Location:
Posts: 820

There are some independent dogs , but in my opinion very few that are naturally that way. I know the PKC hunters especially want them that way. Most of those dogs were trained that way . Don't get me wrong , there are some dogs that are independent but most dogs are NOT naturally independent .

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