Registered: May 2004
Location: northeast
Posts: 1278

Everybody knows that all scoring questions are to be done at the time they are determined.
I have seen several bad calls or rules wrongly applied and not discovered until after the fact.
Whether it was done by accident or a slick card carrying hunting judge I have seen both.
Now unless I am incorrect on the casts ability to remedy without the formality of placing a question on the card, I think this needs to be remedied.
I am not talking about whether a dog should had been minus or tree plus etc.I am talking about the wrong interpretation or applying of rules and it gets discovered afterwards that the scoring was incorrect or purposely
mis-applied.
I know,I know ...Handler should check the score after each tree.But come on how many times have you jumped in the truck and either asked the judge to see the card on the way to the next turnout or at the next turnout before the cast is set to go you ask the judge to see the card to see how he scored the last tree.
I am going to write some events that actually happened on nite hunts and YOU decide if it should have been allowed to stand as scored or fixed.


Scenario #1 4 dog cast.Dog A has been tracking for over one hour holding last strike.Dogs B,C,D have cut back into him.Judge awards 25 points to each as they restrike which was wrong.But cast members don't know at the time.After going back to the club and conversing with the MOH and discovering the scoring error the MOH states his hands are tied due to no question on card.Winning dog would have gotten a first place if correct score of opening first strike back open had been properly applied.

Scenario #2 4 dog cast. Dogs A,B,C struck in that order.Dog A nd B are trailing away. Dog C trees and the 5 minutes are up on the tree.Before getting to the tree dog D is struck but not treed.Upon arriving at the tree dog D is found treeing with dog C .The tree is scored as a slick.Dog C is minus both ways. The judge declares dog D was shut out and got a line through strike and nothing on tree.Now handler D don't say a word.Before the next turn out and after some thought the judge realized he goofed.Immediately at the next turnout he informs handler D he should have got 75- on tree.Handler D puts up a fuss says the score can't be changed. Guess who won the cast that night?

Scenario #3 4 dog cast.Dogs A,B,C are treed.Dog D has not yet opened. After scoring the tree and as the handlers are moving away from the tree and before they could recast handler D strikes his dog then trees. The cast goes to the tree and a coon is scored.The judge wrongly awards dog D 100 strike and 125 tree.Once again on the way to the next turnout the judge is informed by another cast member of his error. They are uncertain due to the question being too late or even whether it can be fixed under the present rules.They leave the score stand. Fortunately this error did not effect the winner or out come.

Scenario # 4 4 dog cast Dog A,B,C,D are all struck. Dog A is treed about 20 yards from cast and called.Dog B trees with dog A but is not called.Dog C and D are still trailing.
Dog A leaves the tree and takes 125-.It comes right back to the tree and the handler re-trees A for 125.The 5 is almost up and dog C is getting closer to the tree so dog B handler trees in for 75. Dog D is now about 80 yards down hill and to the right and is declared treed .
Here's where it gets interesting...The 5 is up on dogs A and B tree. Remember they are only about 20 yards in front of the cast.When they get to the tree it is actually dog D and B on the tree. Nobody including the hunting judge who owns dog D says a word.Mean time dog A that was actually on the tree 80 yards away pulls to the cast and dog C also comes into the tree.
The tree is plus.Handler of dog B is now winning the cast.Or so they thought as they had no minus points.
There were some other tense issues that had arose during the hunt.All the handlers were riding in the judges vehicle which was a 4 door and the dogs were doubled in the dog box.Handler B was an out sider to the area and dog A and D owners actually hunted together regularly. I only mention this as a better understanding of why the handler of dog B hesitated on looking at the card immediately.
After things calmed down and the cast was on the way to the next turn out Handler B asked to see the card.
Imagine dog B owners disgust and surprise to find dog D did not receive any minus points of any kind!!
Handler B argued the point.Handler D calmly proclaimed no split tree was declared so all dogs were scored on one tree.Remember also that they called each others dogs.This guy by the way is a licenced MOH that pulled this not once but twice that night.
Anyway the Handler of dog B wanted a question and all three other cast members declined to allow it or to even fix the card.

Scenario # 5 doesn't matter about the dogs on cast. A hunting judge entered 100 for first tree on every tree.
When it was finally discovered the cast members were at a loss as to whether they could fix it as the judge insisted he was correct.

Well I got a couple more incidents with similar mistakes .I am just trying to make a case point that there needs to be allowances for incidents like these being able to be fixed and scored properly when they were unknown that it was done and discovered after the fact.Or the scoring as per the honor rules was incorrectly applied/ entered even when no question was notated at the time it occurred.

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IT SEEMS THAT EVERYTIME A BREED OR LINE OF DOGS GET POPULAR IT EVENTUALLY LEADS TO ITS RUINATION BY UNINFORMED PEOPLE BREEDING WITHOUT DOING THEIR RESEARCH FIRST.

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NtChGrCh Dryfork Little Blue Baby Doll
2009 Pa Show Dog Of The Year
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Gone too soon RIP my baby girl
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One of kind and would make a believer out of you when you thought there were no coon left
Home of:
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2018 Pa. Show Dog Of Year
Gr.Ch. Batman's Poison Ivy
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2011&2013 Overall Hunt For The Cure
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In memory of my best friend "Jay"

Last edited by Pat Bizich on 10-06-2016 at 01:53 AM

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Registered: Nov 2004
Location: Michigan
Posts: 9282

With all dues respect...... for starters, we would need to eliminate the rule "situations not questioned and notated at the time judges decision is made will not be considered". Otherwise, we'll need to add a new rule and have a list of items that warrant exceptions. Then after each hunt we can all sit around the trucks and relive the hunt and hash out any thing in an effort to get the win. And lastly, hold no one responsible for following the rules.

My opinion and point is that, as petty as certain rules might seem we need to consider and stick with the lesser evil route. Eliminating that rule or making exceptions would create a train-wreck.

Food for thought: A good judge will have no one questioning how every situation is being scored.

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Registered: Sep 2010
Location: New Paris, Indiana
Posts: 7076

All of these problems go away if the judge just simply announces to cast every time he makes a mark on the card, every time he starts a time on the clock and every time he breaks a time. With all due respect to Allens train wreck, there really needs to be some recourse for the handler when a judge that minuses a dog for being off a tree never announces it to the cast. Three handlers are not gonna check the card continuously to guard against such a thing and very few judges would stand for it.
At the very least, the cast should write up the judge when they get back to the MOH if they pull such a stunt. UKC has a "barred from judging" list for the crooked judges. Use it.

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Registered: Jun 2012
Location: McRae Ar
Posts: 3701

quote:

---

Originally posted by JiM
All of these problems go away if the judge just simply announces to cast every time he makes a mark on the card, every time he starts a time on the clock and every time he breaks a time. With all due respect to Allens train wreck, there really needs to be some recourse for the handler when a judge that minuses a dog for being off a tree never announces it to the cast. Three handlers are not gonna check the card continuously to guard against such a thing and very few judges would stand for it.
At the very least, the cast should write up the judge when they get back to the MOH if they pull such a stunt. UKC has a "barred from judging" list for the crooked judges. Use it.

---

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Registered: Feb 2016
Location:
Posts: 99

Here we go again another post about a guy getting cheated..I have been a HD and a MOH you need to keep up with what is going on in YOUR cast and get it straight right then and there when you bring a ??? Back you are asking three guys that were not in the cast to make YOUR call for you....just remember we do this for fun and the best dog doesn't win ever time..best of luck on your next hunt...sometimes the ball doesn't bounce your way.. god bless and good luck

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Registered: Aug 2014
Location: WI
Posts: 437

Sounds like you said, you just are not going to get an honest judge all the time. Take it with a smile and don't cause trouble on your cast.. AND BETTER LUCK NEXT TIME IF YOU DECIDE TO GO ON ANOTHER NIGHT HUNT.

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Registered: Aug 2004
Location: Chattanooga, Tn
Posts: 22586

Judge should announce out loud every time he puts a mark on the card. "Dog A struck for 100". "Dog B treed for 125". " Dog B minused 125". If judges would just do this then there would be no problems. Whenever you get ready to leave a tree you should ask, "Mr Judge, how did you score that tree?" It is the "handlers responsibility" to keep up with what is going on. If you don't then it is your own fault that scenarios got scored wrong. And as stated above, you can't wait until after the hunt and try to redo everything.
Yes, competition hunts can be very confusing sometimes, but that is what makes them challenging. Otherwise we might as well be just out pleasure hunting. If you can't compete then I guess that you might as well just stay home.

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Registered: Oct 2010
Location: Ohio
Posts: 6868

Even after 10 years of competing hard in these hunts I usually look back after a cast and realize there were several instances where things could have been handled different, by me as a handler or as a judge.

I usually judge about 90% of the casts I enter now and really in several years have only brought back a couple of petty questions. Most every cast I hear if that's the way all casts went there would sure be a lot more people showing up. Win or lose If I get that compliment I am happy.

I will say that if you have a good strong judge then the likelihood that you will have a good cast drastically improves.

UKC did a good thing by mandating all MOHs to pre-select judges that they feel will do the job right. When the system is used properly it works great. Unfortunately you have some of these local clubs that the MOH only appoints club members or guys he likes and have fun going against that back at the club if something goes very bad in the cast. Believe me I have seen this first hand.

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Registered: Jul 2014
Location: IOWA
Posts: 958

Don't matter what judge announces as I have seen before. I asked to see card after 1st drop and he had all the scores listed for wrong dogs. This went on all night and went through 3 score cards to get everything correct. Thank god it wasn't a big argument after every drop to get card corrected.

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Registered: May 2004
Location: northeast
Posts: 1278

Just checked this post.
Allen I believe I got it covered On the situations.
All I am trying to bring attention to is there needs to be a recourse for blatant or accidental mistakes made when scoring a situation and it is not immediately discovered.
This isn't about cheating as much as the just plain incorrectly scoring a situation because of a failure to follow the honor rules on the back of the card. Read the scenarios I wrote .Most were just plain errors and they are covered on the back of the card.
A rule that allows a handler to question the call when it is discovered a mistake has been made is what I am suggesting here first and foremost.
Rewording similar to this.
No questions to be considered unless notated at the time and prior to the next scoring event.Exception.Only scoring situations found to be incorrectly recorded per honor rules may be later questioned and immediately upon discovery.

__________________
IT SEEMS THAT EVERYTIME A BREED OR LINE OF DOGS GET POPULAR IT EVENTUALLY LEADS TO ITS RUINATION BY UNINFORMED PEOPLE BREEDING WITHOUT DOING THEIR RESEARCH FIRST.

Gone but never forgotten:
NtChGrCh Dryfork Punkin
NtChGrCh Dryfork Little Blue Baby Doll
2009 Pa Show Dog Of The Year
GrCh Dryfork Little Black Book
Gr.Ch. Make My Day Sunny
Gone too soon RIP my baby girl
Gr.Ch. Black Dog Black Cherry
GrCh Dryfork Black Dog Raine
One of kind and would make a believer out of you when you thought there were no coon left
Home of:
2009,2013,2018 Pa. State
Show Handler Of The Year
CH. Power Pack Pepper
2018 Pa. Show Dog Of Year
Gr.Ch. Batman's Poison Ivy
2011&2013 WTDA Pa State Champion
2011&2013 Overall Hunt For The Cure
Ch. Jay's Greenridge Heidi
In memory of my best friend "Jay"

Last edited by Pat Bizich on 10-09-2016 at 06:17 AM

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Registered: Jun 2003
Location: Morrison TN
Posts: 4927

I think there is an advisor that states you can correct math errors.

Writing down 100 for first tree on every tree would fall into that category because UKC doesn't even have a 100 tree.

I am betting that can be corrected any time it is found out, just as any other math error.

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Registered: May 2004
Location: northeast
Posts: 1278

Here we go again.......
Just last night I officiated as MOH.
Young gentleman was hunting judge on a two dog cast.He is Dog B in this cast.
Dog A and B struck in that order.
Dog B is declared treed. Dog A is treeing but never declared.The tree is scored slick.
He gave minus to Dog B on strike and tree.
He deleted Dog A on strike and gave it nothing on tree.
Of course handler of dog A kept quiet.
After getting in truck and 'BEFORE" the next turnout he realizes he made an error.
TOO LATE!! Can't fix it, can't question it.
Luckily for Dog B handler he still won the cast ,but almost got lost the cast.

This is absolutely crazy and ridiculous that things like this can not be changed/fixed to reflect the correct scoring.

Honestly, this rule has always bugged me for the very reasons of it is just plain wrong that the wrong dog could win a cast because of a rule mis-application and the "not allowed to change it" argument.

__________________
IT SEEMS THAT EVERYTIME A BREED OR LINE OF DOGS GET POPULAR IT EVENTUALLY LEADS TO ITS RUINATION BY UNINFORMED PEOPLE BREEDING WITHOUT DOING THEIR RESEARCH FIRST.

Gone but never forgotten:
NtChGrCh Dryfork Punkin
NtChGrCh Dryfork Little Blue Baby Doll
2009 Pa Show Dog Of The Year
GrCh Dryfork Little Black Book
Gr.Ch. Make My Day Sunny
Gone too soon RIP my baby girl
Gr.Ch. Black Dog Black Cherry
GrCh Dryfork Black Dog Raine
One of kind and would make a believer out of you when you thought there were no coon left
Home of:
2009,2013,2018 Pa. State
Show Handler Of The Year
CH. Power Pack Pepper
2018 Pa. Show Dog Of Year
Gr.Ch. Batman's Poison Ivy
2011&2013 WTDA Pa State Champion
2011&2013 Overall Hunt For The Cure
Ch. Jay's Greenridge Heidi
In memory of my best friend "Jay"

Last edited by Pat Bizich on 10-23-2016 at 08:10 AM

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Registered: Aug 2014
Location: WI
Posts: 437

maybe if we just question every score made , then we can correct everything down the road

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Registered: May 2004
Location: northeast
Posts: 1278

What is SO confusing? If you can not understand the injustice of allowing an incorrect application of a scoring situation that allows the wrong dog to win then you don't understand the problem.

__________________
IT SEEMS THAT EVERYTIME A BREED OR LINE OF DOGS GET POPULAR IT EVENTUALLY LEADS TO ITS RUINATION BY UNINFORMED PEOPLE BREEDING WITHOUT DOING THEIR RESEARCH FIRST.

Gone but never forgotten:
NtChGrCh Dryfork Punkin
NtChGrCh Dryfork Little Blue Baby Doll
2009 Pa Show Dog Of The Year
GrCh Dryfork Little Black Book
Gr.Ch. Make My Day Sunny
Gone too soon RIP my baby girl
Gr.Ch. Black Dog Black Cherry
GrCh Dryfork Black Dog Raine
One of kind and would make a believer out of you when you thought there were no coon left
Home of:
2009,2013,2018 Pa. State
Show Handler Of The Year
CH. Power Pack Pepper
2018 Pa. Show Dog Of Year
Gr.Ch. Batman's Poison Ivy
2011&2013 WTDA Pa State Champion
2011&2013 Overall Hunt For The Cure
Ch. Jay's Greenridge Heidi
In memory of my best friend "Jay"

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Registered: Aug 2014
Location: WI
Posts: 437

They call them honor rules , maybe we should put the shock collar on the handlers , and everytime they cheat we get to shock them..We are suppose to be judging the hounds , not the handlers..... TO ME HONOR RULES MEANS YOU SHOULD DO THE RIGHT THING EVERYTIME..IF EVERYONE FOLLOWED THE REAL MEANING OF HONOR , THERE WOULD BE NO RULES NEEDED,,We could just hunt the dogs and as a group decide who's dog did best that night.

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Registered: Aug 2006
Location: milan,mi
Posts: 1379

Shockers on the handlers won't work batteries won't last long enough.

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Registered: Jun 2009
Location: North Carolina
Posts: 480

quote:

---

Originally posted by Pat Bizich
Here we go again.......
Just last night I officiated as MOH.
Young gentleman was hunting judge on a two dog cast.He is Dog B in this cast.
Dog A and B struck in that order.
Dog B is declared treed. Dog A is treeing but never declared.The tree is scored slick.
He gave minus to Dog B on strike and tree.
He deleted Dog A on strike and gave it nothing on tree.
Of course handler of dog A kept quiet.
After getting in truck and 'BEFORE" the next turnout he realizes he made an error.
TOO LATE!! Can't fix it, can't question it.
Luckily for Dog B handler he still won the cast ,but almost got lost the cast.

This is absolutely crazy and ridiculous that things like this can not be changed/fixed to reflect the correct scoring.

Honestly, this rule has always bugged me for the very reasons of it is just plain wrong that the wrong dog could win a cast because of a rule mis-application and the "not allowed to change it" argument.

---

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Registered: May 2004
Location: northeast
Posts: 1278

Bert.No ,that is not what I am suggesting.
I don't know how long you have been a MOH .At one time you could question a call any time up until the scorecard was handed in.The problem was if a cast member realized if a tree was scored a certain way they would win the cast and were questioning the calls at the end of the hunt.
Once again I am not suggesting all calls ..."JUST INCORRECT APPLICATIONS" on scoring situations #1 and foremost and only that.
If anyone would take the time to re-read the events I posted.
The error was realized on the majority after things calmed down and the judge had time to think about what had been scored.

A cooling down period so to speak .As I mentioned in a prior post only incorrect applications could be questioned and immediately upon discovery.With another stipulation that could be added AND BEFORE THE TURNING LOOSE OF ANY DOGS FOR ANOTHER SCORING SITUATION.
So if it happened even one tree ago you are tough out of luck.

Another way would simply be that if a scoring application error is discovered would be it could be changed with a majority cast in agreement.

I am going to keep beating the drum to at least allow a way to fix it.

__________________
IT SEEMS THAT EVERYTIME A BREED OR LINE OF DOGS GET POPULAR IT EVENTUALLY LEADS TO ITS RUINATION BY UNINFORMED PEOPLE BREEDING WITHOUT DOING THEIR RESEARCH FIRST.

Gone but never forgotten:
NtChGrCh Dryfork Punkin
NtChGrCh Dryfork Little Blue Baby Doll
2009 Pa Show Dog Of The Year
GrCh Dryfork Little Black Book
Gr.Ch. Make My Day Sunny
Gone too soon RIP my baby girl
Gr.Ch. Black Dog Black Cherry
GrCh Dryfork Black Dog Raine
One of kind and would make a believer out of you when you thought there were no coon left
Home of:
2009,2013,2018 Pa. State
Show Handler Of The Year
CH. Power Pack Pepper
2018 Pa. Show Dog Of Year
Gr.Ch. Batman's Poison Ivy
2011&2013 WTDA Pa State Champion
2011&2013 Overall Hunt For The Cure
Ch. Jay's Greenridge Heidi
In memory of my best friend "Jay"

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Registered: Apr 2014
Location: Pike county, ky
Posts: 867

People would file complaints on judges that do this and ukc be firm we would eliminate them. The problem is most of these type judges are so far in ukc !!!! They could get the brown off there nose with a pressure washer, lol. Than you got the honest firm judge that goes by the rules but people or even ukc don't care much for there bed side manner and someone draws them out and don't get there way of running over people and Judge stands up so they don't let them judge.

So I've done figured it out; THEY AINT NO FIGURING IT OUT!!!

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