Registered: May 2016
Location: Palatka, FL
Posts: 5106

Think about the question I am about to ask and think how it could or would have made a difference. Also think why it never has happened that way.

My thoughts about this are mostly in the Treeing Walker breed. My thoughts are not intended to disrespect any person or group of people from certain areas. You guys have done more for this sport than I have even dreamed about doing.

There have been a few dogs that have made a tremendous impact on the Treeing Walker Breed. They put a lot of Tree Power in our hounds and some would say too much. I think the too much is associated to where these dogs are hunted.
If they are hunted in the stamping grounds of where their sires were located and became famous, they fair pretty well. They are taken to a different location some of the holes in their ability can be seen. I think these top dogs brought a lot of tree to the breed and at the same time diminished some of the tracking ability many needed in a hound. Behind these dogs you had certain men. These men are die hard coon hunters and they hunted hard and bred what they hunted. They did nothing wrong and bred outstanding dogs for their location. One might call it the frozen north. They did not breed outstanding dogs for the swamps of FL, GA, LA and MS. I say the reason is lack of tracking ability. Not saying they saw it in their hounds and closed their eyes to it. They just didn't need it where the coon are that plentiful.
What if someone from one of these Southern locations had the ability and determination to own, breed and produce outstanding hounds. They did it with what it takes to tree a coon down here and that is being a track dog first, tree dog second. The whole coon hound breeding world could be turned upside down.
Now your guys in AR and TX are reading saying what about us? I haven't forgotten you. Timothy Ball might be the most famous of the bunch but he had a different method at a different time. He understood marketing. He understanding advertising in the American Cooner and he understand NUMBERS. Reproduce in numbers and some will make it. Enough to hit that 10% mark in reproducing records. Both with old Harry and Stylish Harry.
Now David Fletcher and some of the others from that area had a more down to earth approach and are like many of you, understood what it took to tree coon in their area and they mixed some marketing in with breeding to get the best. Junior to some of Davids dogs produced Stylish Jake. But think about this. It was still the overpowering treed dog watering down the track dogs in every area of the country.
The other side of the coin and I ask myself this. If TRACK DOGS are so important like you say and they would make so much difference. Why didn't one rival the Tree dogs from up NORTH for the top % in the breeding standings.
I say TREE Dogs make a difference winning hunts and TRACK Dogs make a difference when it comes to our tree having coon in them.

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Registered: Jan 2013
Location: Marietta
Posts: 10790

Bruce you can take my apology now for saying this there are other kcs that are paying big money if you don't tree a coon you still get paid there ain't no shortage of coons it's the way the dogs operate with all these accepted faults that causes the low scores they are hand picked to fit the rules 4 dogs go 4 different directions by time you get them gathered up the hunts over I for one don't want to go follow that crap I got a job that's how I make my money I am not going to put up with that crap to break even at best but I am right now trying to put together a coon treeing machine just to see how it will stack up against the competition dogs of today it is easier to hunt an unpredictable idiot and hope for the best tho lol!! I seen Tim hunt some good dogs but I seen him hunt a whole lot more that should have been culled and he would sell them for good money jmo.

Last edited by yadkintar on 10-12-2016 at 06:29 PM

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Registered: Nov 2014
Location: S.E. IOWA
Posts: 371

Bruce very well spoken, I am in total agreement with your last statement ( tree dogs win hunts,track dogs put coons in the trees) and geography is everything! Typically a southern dog has to hunt deeper and harder to find the coon they are going to tree and a northern dog where coons are in more abundance do not have to,and please northern guys don't take offense cause I'm in that category and am I supporter of work smarter not harder. A yankee dog learns to deal with the frost and frozen ground and a rebel dog learns the heat and swamps, it doesn't make one superior over the other it just means each may excel in different terrain. Last thing if we as a whole were hunting for 100$ coon hides to support our family like the hounds of yesterday and not for trucks which style of dog would you hunt? Times have changed and the only thing left to recoup our losses is to raise hounds that are capable of winning in the big hunts because they have become the only ones of value. If a man lists a honest country coondog that seems to be able to just tree piles of coon night in and night out and rack up a 100 or so hides a year but isn't a first strike dog,first tree dog and isn't blistering fast on the track but just gets it done night in and night out, that dog might bring 800$ on the high end for a pleasure hunter.Then you take the first and first type dog that trees 2 coons in an hour and several questionable trees but covers 3 miles to do it and will not be on the same tree as another and wins big in the top hunts cause he is always way deep and alone that same dog will bring 8000$. Our times have changed and it has impacted our breeding programs both good and bad in my opinion. I will stick true to my values and will probably never win any trucks or world hunts because of them but I prefer a dog that is as much fun to hunt 5 nights a week as he is to take to the hunts on the weekends. When you turn him or her loose no matter what the conditions are or what the terrain is, you better bring the rifle and plenty of shells cause your gonna look at coons.

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Registered: Jun 2012
Location: McRae Ar
Posts: 3701

I understand your thinking Bruce but slick treeing dog’s slick tree up north just as much as they do down south. The difference in the two are not tracking ability because any dog that is accurate is a track dog. There are different styles but they all have to successfully trail a coon to the correct tree and there is no difference up north or down south. The difference is having to hunt further to find one.

There was only one factor that got us to the point we are today. That’s the willingness of everyone to tolerate a slick treeing dog. The change in most hunter’s attitudes is what got us where we are and being able to win without plus point did not help the situation.

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Registered: Jun 2003
Location: Talala, Oklahoma
Posts: 5208

I'm not very old, but I can remember 30 years ago I didn't expect the average year old pup to be capable of consistently treeing coons alone and holding a tree until I got there.

They weren't common.

Dogs make solid tree dogs a lot younger now than they used to.

They also miss more.

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Registered: Oct 2016
Location: Huntsville, Missouri
Posts: 371

I think there is a difference in slick trees.

For example:

There are dogs that will work and work a poor track and then, arguably lazy, will tree eventually, knowing that they do not have a coon. Many hunters do not even mind this dog, as they have been there waiting an hour or more and glad to get the dog gathered up and move on.

This is in contrast to the dog that goes around slamming trees believing in its heart that he has the coon.

I think the result is the same with the aforementioned trees: no coon. But I think the root cause of both are very different.

In my opinion, a common misconception is that a hot nosed dog misses a lot. I disagree. Everyone that has seen a dog jam a deer or coyote and fall off on a coon, the dog always has the coon. Why? Because he fell off on a hot coon.
Many hot nosed dogs are your more accurate dogs in that they only smell what they can run well and that hasn't been down very long. Or has the sense to move out of an area where they can't run the track.

I think it is in balance. A dog has to have a balanced enough nose to be able to smell a less than hot track, but also to be able to move that track as well.

A dog that can't move an old track everyone is jacking around on but works out over the hill to have a coon away from the cast may not have the best nose in the cast, he just has the desire to find Ricky and the brain power to know it isn't in this creek bottom all the dogs have poured over for 45 minutes.

Some dogs just have the desire, regardless of their abilities, to get under coons and the brain power to get it done. That is the dog that I am after, regardless of what "nose" they have.

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Registered: Jun 2014
Location: missouri
Posts: 1176

quote:

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Originally posted by Cliff Thornburg
I think there is a difference in slick trees.

For example:

There are dogs that will work and work a poor track and then, arguably lazy, will tree eventually, knowing that they do not have a coon. Many hunters do not even mind this dog, as they have been there waiting an hour or more and glad to get the dog gathered up and move on.

This is in contrast to the dog that goes around slamming trees believing in its heart that he has the coon.

I think the result is the same with the aforementioned trees: no coon. But I think the root cause of both are very different.

In my opinion, a common misconception is that a hot nosed dog misses a lot. I disagree. Everyone that has seen a dog jam a deer or coyote and fall off on a coon, the dog always has the coon. Why? Because he fell off on a hot coon.
Many hot nosed dogs are your more accurate dogs in that they only smell what they can run well and that hasn't been down very long. Or has the sense to move out of an area where they can't run the track.

I think it is in balance. A dog has to have a balanced enough nose to be able to smell a less than hot track, but also to be able to move that track as well.

A dog that can't move an old track everyone is jacking around on but works out over the hill to have a coon away from the cast may not have the best nose in the cast, he just has the desire to find Ricky and the brain power to know it isn't in this creek bottom all the dogs have poured over for 45 minutes.

Some dogs just have the desire, regardless of their abilities, to get under coons and the brain power to get it done. That is the dog that I am after, regardless of what "nose" they have.

---

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Registered: Jul 2007
Location:
Posts: 3075

I don't know why a lot of you guy,s think there are so many slick treers in the other registries ??? There are some but a lot more in ukc Imo!!! You don't win big money hunts and trucks by treeing blanks on a consistant basis !!! There is a problem with slick treeing dgs but the reg they hunt I don't believe had anything to do with it

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Registered: Jan 2016
Location: Central Pa
Posts: 1114

You guys got it all wrong. I just read a hunting article this evening that stated most times the raccoon hops from treetop to treetop and is long gone by the time you get there. So I can only take from that, it's not the dogs fault. Who knew? Ha.

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Registered: Aug 2008
Location:
Posts: 319

quote:

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Originally posted by joey
I understand your thinking Bruce but slick treeing dog’s slick tree up north just as much as they do down south. The difference in the two are not tracking ability because any dog that is accurate is a track dog. There are different styles but they all have to successfully trail a coon to the correct tree and there is no difference up north or down south. The difference is having to hunt further to find one.

There was only one factor that got us to the point we are today. That’s the willingness of everyone to tolerate a slick treeing dog. The change in most hunter’s attitudes is what got us where we are and being able to win without plus point did not help the situation.

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Registered: Dec 2004
Location: South Carolina
Posts: 112

Can i ask a couple of question here? Do you think that a dog is not a good track dog because he doesn't open until he's almost treed? Do you think that slick teeing dogs pull slick because they're not able to finish their tracks? That's what I read into some of the replies. Some of the best track dogs I've seen would never open until they were treed. They weren't hot nosed, or poor track dogs. They simply didn't open until treed. I keep hearing about the tree power bred into them to where they slick tree. Some are slick treeing idiots. I've seen them, you have seen them. Imo 80% of the time that's on the owner/trainer. It's not so much tree power bred into them as it is competitiveness bred into them. Theyre just as competitive as we are. That's why you see dogs tighten up with age a lot of times. They start taking time to check their trees. A huge percentage of these slick treeing buffoons can be made into outstanding coon treeing dogs. A few just don't make it. I'm not claiming to know everything or more than anyone else for that matter. These are my beliefs that I feel strongly about as i have kept them in mind while training with good results. Figure out how to use the tools they have to make them better. It's easy to write them off as too much tree or track bred into them.

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Registered: May 2012
Location: Amerika land of the free?
Posts: 1237

Good post Bruce and food for thought as well.

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Registered: Mar 2008
Location: Menominee, Nebraska
Posts: 875

quote:

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Originally posted by Bruce m. Conkey

I say TREE Dogs make a difference winning hunts and TRACK Dogs make a difference when it comes to our tree having coon in them.

---

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Registered: Dec 2004
Location: South Carolina
Posts: 112

It still takes treeing coon to win the big hunts in all regestries. I have been out of it for 10 years. A year before i quit I was hunting a automatic strike dog. She barked as soon as the lead snapped and didn't shut up until you pulled her off a tree. She was deadly accurate and could blister a track when she really smelled one. I could tell when she really struck by her bark. Everyone hated my guts for hunting her. She would run up a score because i got 1st and 1st on every drop. She was always by herself. I had several guys tell me they'd put a bullet in her if they owned her. Fast forward 10 years, I come back and that's what everyone is hunting. That's what it takes to make the big score and get 1st or make final 4. I didn't like it but I loved being in final 4 at end of night. They're greedy just like I was. It changes everything. Those old dogs that were great when I quit would be 3rd or 4th strike dogs now. They were honest 1st strike back then because they were in the country struck while others were pissing on bushes.

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Registered: Jun 2003
Location: Missouri
Posts: 340

It really amounts to what folks are willing to hunt and then what they will buy a pup from. My experience is that most folks are impatient--they want the pups to start early and they want their dog to get treed quickly. They complain about slick trees, but won't keep a pup that trails around or keep a dog that only makes a tree or two in a couple hours even if it almost always has a coon. Its always been a percentage game guys--a dog that makes two trees and has two coons gets beat by a dog that makes five trees and has three coons regardless if you are keeping score or skinning coon. I started with trailing type dogs that would could tree, but I was also 11 years old and had all night to hunt. By the time I was 20, I had a dog that would get treed and didn't spend all night doing it. I could take that dog and make a tree or two and go back home so I could be at work on time. The other thing is this--I hunted almost every night and really trained a dog. Most folks now--me included--hunt a dog that will naturally tree a coon and they get hunted enough to do just that. The guys that still hunt a dog hard are still packing a dog that doesn't miss much and can run a track. They simply won't tolerate less.

Its real simple--If you don't like what you have, then its up to YOU to change it. Quit blaming others for too much tree or no tracking. People raise what sells and if nobody will buy a pup because they lack what the buyers want, then they will change to meet the buyers or go out of business.

GES

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Registered: May 2016
Location: Palatka, FL
Posts: 5106

GES that is right. The other side of the coin is what people don't want fall by the wayside. I get a kick out of people hanging on to memories of one dog looking for blood from that dog to breed to. If the blood in the dog was any good to begin with, it wouldn't be so hard to find. Not hard to find a sacket jr hound is it, not hard to find a wipeout hound is it.
Harry dogs are everywhere. All these will be around a while and if you have to look under a rock to find the blood in your dog, there is a reason for it. It didn't tree, it didn't track and it didn't win.

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