Registered: Aug 2011
Location: Northern Tier
Posts: 200

Three questions:

1. Who is breeding for independence?
2. Do you think it is a genetic fault?
3. How much independence is too much?

Obviously if you are breeding for it you do not think it is a fault. I see discussions all of the time on the UKC forums about the "deep and lonely" dog winning hunts and how all of the proposed rule changes will affect people's breeding programs.

I think that most of that talk is just talk. I think that most people are still breeding for a balanced coonhound.

What do you think?

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quote:

---

Originally posted by RedScorpion
Three questions:

1. Who is breeding for independence?
2. Do you think it is a genetic fault?
3. How much independence is too much?

I think that most people are still breeding for a balanced coonhound.
What do you think?

---

I think that "some" people are breeding for a balanced hound and "some" people are breeding for a super independant hound. I guess that it depends on what you call "most" people. I do think that a whole lot of people are breeding for a little more independance. I guess that the answer also depends on what you call a "balanced" hound.

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Registered: Aug 2004
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And here are a couple more related questions....

How many people are trying to "train" their dog to be more independant?

How many people want to buy/hunt a super independant dog?

Last edited by Richard Lambert on 09-08-2016 at 06:34 PM

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"Balanced" to me means not only balanced on track/tree but mentally balanced, too. A dog that goes out of its way to get away from other dogs no matter what the circumstances are out of balance, mentally.

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There is nothing I despise more than a me-too dog. I like independent hounds that need no help. But I don't like to walk forever to every tree... I have one hound that is very independent, but a little more long legged than I care for.
I have a 21 month old male that is just right- he will run the same track with another hound, and he will let them tree with him, but he will pretty much never go to another hound that trees unless he is on the same track.
I have seen him split and hold serious pressure from another hard tree dog many times. He isn't a deep and lonely... he is usually a close and and lonely.... with the meat.

I do not think that independence is a genetic fault at all, but a hound has to have more that just independence.. they have to have drive, brains, and a nose... So to be balanced in my book, they have to be fairly independent

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Anymore, I would say whether or not you are actually "breeding" for that particular trait really depends on the format of hunt you like to participate in and spend your money at, assuming that most breeders are actively competing in some sort or fashion in competition Nite Hunts.

I mean, that only makes sense, right? Titles and prestige drive breeding programs for the most part. At least in our day and age.

Although it does seem like independence is a reoccurring trait in several different lines of Redbone today, I tend to see more "manufactured" independence in the hunts I've competed in over the last several years. That's fine and dandy, but it is not "natural", thus I do not think that you can consider that kind of "independence" a genetic trait.

I've always appreciated this independent trait in the line of dogs I've worked with for the last 8 or 9 years. You see it pop up every now and then, where one puppy is extremely dominant in this "gene" to the others and is as independent as the day is long, consistently treeing coon by themselves night after night. Is this a bad thing? I don't necessarily think so. However, I myself do not see the need for a HOUND to be 100% independent, thus, I do not intentionally breed for it. However, it is a trait that pops up generation after generation in this particular line of dogs. (From what I've gathered from people with more experience than I)

My opinion is that hounds were bred and developed to be a pack animal. That is an instinct that is strong throughout many of the breeds we see today, Coonhound or not. The great "me-tooing" debate will never cease in a world where independence is being rewarded in a competitive venue. Our hounds have been bred longer to "pack" then to "split" so I think it will be awhile before we start to see it generated through breeding on a large scale.

On the other hand, the "independence" gene is a big reason why we have Coonhounds today.

I'm still going to enjoy those dead loner types that reoccur in "our" line of dogs though. Whether I own one or not

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when the puppies do not want to nurse with each other, then its genetic!!

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I may be way off but I believe that being independent is something that can be thrown by either sire or dam. Although I'm guessing some pups just naturally have the desire to be alone with no particular gene from either side influencing the make up. I own a 20 month old male Turkey X Zoe that will be by himself 90% of the time regardless of the situation. He will tree with another dog but if more than one coon he will be by himself and have the second coon. As long as he is accurate I don't care if I walk to 20 different trees a night.

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There are certain lines that will reproduce it and have. I can tell you one that will and constantly does. Buster dogs. Almost to a fault. Seen Buster II go many times. Hunted a half brother to him off old Buster. If you cut loose In a cast he would run out with them and be left, right or come back right through the middle of cast and go behind you. They had to go to him he wouldnt be with them. I don't know anything about nursing puppies and how much they will be independant. I think to compete in all different types of hunts you better have one that if it opens stays with what it has started. Not pack up because something else sounds better. Is it a fine line? Yes. If you train for it or have it natural and they put it in the ground or it just goes to nothing on track and they end up not covering and you find them a mile from where you cut loose than its just part of it. I think you will win more cast being independant than not. Just my two cents. I would love to find the Stud dog that throws Big Big mouths and Independance. Anybody got that PM me please. I am looking for it and will be next year crossing to one that does. Or waiting till I find it. I don't want to breed to something that gets covered up on a tree with 3 other dogs.

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quote:

---

Originally posted by RedScorpion
Three questions:

1. Who is breeding for independence?
2. Do you think it is a genetic fault?
3. How much independence is too much?

Obviously if you are breeding for it you do not think it is a fault. I see discussions all of the time on the UKC forums about the "deep and lonely" dog winning hunts and how all of the proposed rule changes will affect people's breeding programs.

I think that most of that talk is just talk. I think that most people are still breeding for a balanced coonhound.

What do you think?

---

Last edited by Chris Snyder on 09-09-2016 at 03:37 AM

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Lots of good points here. Independance is/can be genetics and "born in". Ask Kevin Shirley. He bred/developed this trait in the Buster dogs. But ask him what he thought about it after they got super independant. Be careful what you ask for, you might get it.
To me "independant to a fault" is refusing to back or even hunt with another dog. A dog that leaves the woods you turn him into just to get away from the other dogs is independant to a fault. A dog that refuses to back another dog that beats him to a tree is independant to a fault. Whether you like a super independant dog has a whole lot to do with where you live/hunt. If you are in thin coon and your super independant dog has to go 2 miles to find his own coon while the other dogs tree 500-600 yds deep, you might just change your opinion.
I love the "mentally balanced" term. Now dogs have to not only be balanced track and tree dogs but "mentally balanced" also. I am going to start using that term. It is very true and I have seen several dogs that their owners described as dead loners when in reality they were just mentally unbalanced.
What is a me too dog? Is it a dog that is a little slower to track/tree than the dog that it is hunted with and therefore gets treed second? Is it a dog that takes a wrong turn on a track and has to catch up to the other dogs? Or is it a dog that absolutely can not tree a coon and stay by itself so it has to have another dog with it? I have seen the "me too" term used to describe a dog that I know can tree a coon by itself. Is this fair?
Ask yourself,"why do I want a super independant dog"? I would
love to hear/see the answers. Is it only, "I think that is the only kind that I can win hunts with"?

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It's a fine line kinda like a dog that can't be run off a tree but won't fight
Over the years I've seen some off the wall training to make a dog independent but they are always giving refresher courses monthly the natural instinct to pack always comes back and they can't reproduce what you have to teach

I want a dog that when its cut lose has one thing on its mind Getting under a coon fast by first looking for its own coon not following other dogs. hunting for tracks where others aren't once track is found track it tree it and stay no matter what other dogs are doing to me that's a independent dog
But I want that same dog to also bust its butt to a dog that found the track first once thier track and tree that coon where it thinks that coon ran and climbed regardless of what the other dogs do with that track that's a independent dog in my book all the other dog did was find that track first pot luck
If a dog refuses to cover a dog when it opens or trees first that's independent to a fault imo I have seen this type naturally but have watch and seen this trained way more often by some with out even knowing it by hunting there young dog with a buddy that has a very agresive tree guarder every so often while hunting the dog alone the rest of the time

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So, are there 3 different types; "born independant", "trained/learned to be independant" and "mentally unbalanced independant"?

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I really enjoy the independent discussions.

I've owned 1 that was independant to a fault occasionally. And many, many that were not independant enough! I'm confident early on the ones that lacked it was partly my fault. I never pushed one alone enough and now, I likely push one alone too much...if that's possible.

Mark and Richard hit right on the issue with when too independent is a problem. After a big hunt you see many people complain constantly if it's held in an area that doesn't have many coons. Because usually that means they cut loose around 1-2 coons within a square mile and if their super independant hound went gee instead of haw they missed out. It becomes a game of speed only then, which is exciting but not my favorite.

I'm personally a sucker for one smart enough, and a nose so uncanny he/she can seem to find that one coon nothing else can, and under a mile. And when I own such hound, I'll clone it until I die.

Last edited by Adam Wingler on 09-09-2016 at 06:33 PM

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quote:

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Originally posted by Adam Wingler
.......Richard hit right on the issue......

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I am going to print this off, frame it and hang it on my wall.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Richard Lambert
I am going to print this off, frame it and hang it on my wall.

---

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What I was referring to when I first posted is "independence to a fault."

The more mature a dog becomes, the more he is hunted alone, and the smarter he gets, that dog will become more independent on his own because he knows when he is right. He will usually not honor dogs doing stuff he knows is wrong. If that means he will not honor certain dogs in a cast, that's OK with me.

That's the kind of dog I want. If that is what is termed independence, then I am on board.

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I win ALONE or lose ALONE, I don't want to win by relying on my dog to cover on a coon or loose because it covered on a coon... I breed for heart & drive, if they've got HEART you can get anything you want to out of them. I firmly believe it's all in the way you hunt a dog as to what you get. Yes I've had dogs cover & I've had them not cover. All dogs will do it but when I'm at a hunt with 1 I've got hunted up most of the time it won't back... Even pleasure huntin I don't like seeing my dogs "work together" I love seeing them get away from each other & do it on there own... Of course if they strike a hot track out of the truck together they should tree it together, but if they don't I don't expect them to be together. When I pleasure hunt I normally cut 1 on each side of the road I'm parked on.

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Redbone:
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It must be nice to have spots where you can cut a dog on either side of the road. I have a hard enough time finding a spot where I can cut on one side of the road. Where I hunt, if I hunt one dog by itself then I have left the others at home.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Tony Dominguez
I win ALONE or lose ALONE, I don't want to win by relying on my dog to cover on a coon or loose because it covered on a coon... I breed for heart & drive, if they've got HEART you can get anything you want to out of them. I firmly believe it's all in the way you hunt a dog as to what you get. Yes I've had dogs cover & I've had them not cover. All dogs will do it but when I'm at a hunt with 1 I've got hunted up most of the time it won't back... Even pleasure huntin I don't like seeing my dogs "work together" I love seeing them get away from each other & do it on there own... Of course if they strike a hot track out of the truck together they should tree it together, but if they don't I don't expect them to be together. When I pleasure hunt I normally cut 1 on each side of the road I'm parked on.

---

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quote:

---

Originally posted by Richard Lambert
So, are there 3 different types; "born independant", "trained/learned to be independant" and "mentally unbalanced independant"?

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So trained and learned are 2 different types of loners. I guess that now we have 4 different types.

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I want them to go and find a coon track. And when they smell scent, open and let the rest know. THEN I want the others that don't have a track to join in the chase and tree the darn coon

End of chase

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I want them to go and find a coon track. And when they smell scent, open and let the rest know. THEN I want the others that don't have a track to join in the chase and tree the darn coon

End of chase

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quote:

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Originally posted by Chris Snyder
Tony, out of curiosity, about what percentage of the time would you expect G-Man to be alone vs. the amount of time say that Cali would be alone?

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407 E. Clarksville st
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Redbone:
All Grand Outlaw G-Man
GRNITECH
GRAND SHOW CH
CHKC GRCH (all time $ leader)
PKC PLATINUM CH (all time $ leader)
2016 RESERVE FALL SUPER STAKE CH (only redbone to ever make the final 4)


Grnitech PKC CH Night Stalkin roxie
2018 top 16 PKC redbone breed
2018 Top 16 PA state race
2019 National Redbone days Champion


Walker:
UKC Dual Grand, PKC Silver Ch, CHKC Champion
Frost Bite Zoey

UKC Dual Grand, PKC Silver Ch, CHKC Champion
Dirty Little Tramp
Russ Myer hunt winner $20,000
Final 4 PKC super stakes


Past:
GOLD CH GRCH GRNITECH Classy Cali
GRCH GRNITECH 'PR' Outlaw Jack
CH GRNITECH 'PR' Apache Man
CH GRNITECH 'PR' Famous Outlaw Ann
CH GRNITECH 'PR' Tree Burning Moses

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quote:

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Originally posted by Tony Dominguez
G can get competitive at times, but when he's hunted up he'll be with dogs maybe 2-3 out of 10 times, & when Cali is hunted up she won't back but maybe 1 out 20 lol it don't matter if they're in hot coons. Of course both has backed & will back again before they die but when both are hunted up & lookin right they're just about dead loaners. Cali is a jealous type dog & hasn't been man made to be that way

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