Registered: Mar 2006
Location: Superstition Mtns., AZ
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It's a curious thing that I've come upon. I wanted to see what the sighthounds were all about a few years ago and I bought a few stags and a few whippets and started monkeying around with them. A lot of hunting and researching and some very good dogs have taught me a few things that seem to be gone from the general knowledge of the dog world today (in the USA anyhow).

Years ago the field trials were pretty popular and quite a few folks would cross their hounds with greyhounds and the like to bring up their speed. It did a lot more than that.

While the infusion of greyhounds into quite a few lines of hounds didn't do much for the commonly accepted character of the hound where it came to cold trailing and having a nice big bawl mouth, it did do a lot of other things.

It has occurred to me that many of the sighthound traits would certainly put some serious game catching traits into a line of cur dogs and wouldn't be so foreign in the results considering the cur dogs aren't exactly known for having beautiful mouths.

Add to this that despite some commonly held misconceptions, there are certain sighthounds that can run a warm track with (and ahead of) the very best dogs around.

All of this "new information" (new to me) makes me ask the question, "Why aren't people doing this?!?"

From what I've seen already, a good whippet or a good stag or greyhound will fire up anything it is put to, put some leg and speed on anything it is bred to, add great winding, alertness, acute eyesight, excellent hearing, and CATCH, CATCH, CATCH! In addition, and generally speaking, they don't seem to go into a confrontation with an animal with the intention of fighting, they go in with the mind to kill.

Furthermore, with the inclination of many folks to gravitate towards a silent track dog that chops on the tree, the sighthounds will nearly always guarantee that their use in a cross will produce this type track dog.

It's kind of looking like a no brainer but to be honest, I'm not the cur dog man I used to be and have gone to the hounds quite a while ago. That being said, I'm not so far gone that I can't see a good thing when it's staring me in the face.

Has anyone had any experience with dogs that have been bred this way? I'd like to hear about it if you have.

I'll add one more thing. I have a buddy that crossed one of his plotts to a good hot blood greyhound AAA female and produced a litter of dogs that are open on a sight race but shut right up when they are cold trailing and they tree really well, fight like a buzz saw, are around 26-27 inches and have very good speed. I have several stag x border collie lurchers that do all of the above but don't tree well. I also have a stag x july that is everything the plott crosses are but open on a hot track and tree acceptably well.

A couple of friends of mine and I are always taking about how nice it would have been to have crossed a sighthound on one of the good cur dogs we've hunted with but the logistics just never lined up to do it.

I hope to find some out there that have accessed this upgrade and had some good success with it.

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Registered: Jan 2011
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dan. its nice to see your mind never stops. at times I wished you lived next door so we could talk dogs for days months and years.many years ago my dad and his friends most were from Ireland . most had a grey hound or two. for jack rabbits and red fox. some of these were crossed with a july hounds and walker hounds. the walker hounds were from England and most were very big stocky powerfull dogs. I should add theses crosses were also used to catch snow shoe rabbits. many of those guys never owned a gun.iam talking over 55 years ago.hey there was a pigeon auction in la over the weekend mike ganus sold a 2015 young bird for 27 thousand usa. off topic. pigeon flyers don't care about breeds or strains there only concen is lines that win.ABILITY WINS

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A friend of mine has been putting it in his catch dogs for years. A little Pit, Dogo and between 1/4 and 3/8 greyhound works about the best for him. Strong powerful dogs with brains. Never seen any tree though.

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Mike sure likes staying in the winner's circle, that for sure.

This sighthound deal is an angle of the dog world I really knew next to nothing about but I've got a little time in it now and once again, got very lucky with the dogs I got along the way. I got rid of all of the whippets but I still think about my Mikey dog all of the time but this is not the climate for a whippet and my dogs have to at least be able to live outside here. I'm sitting on a stag that is incredible. He's not just a really good stag but he runs track (warm to hot) faster than nearly any dog I've seen and he trees pretty well. Go figure...their not supposed to do that!

The lurchers are nothing short of awesome but their not tree dogs. I don't want to have to teach them that but they are starting to figure it out on their own and I think they will be treeing some this year. They are as smart as you would expect with that border collie in there. I was going to teach them to tree but I decided against it because I want to keep evaluating them on natural ability.

I got a jagdterrier x whippet that I'm raising up right now. He's got no objection to barking for what he wants so I'm hopeful that he'll make a good treedog...we'll see. He's not going to be the size I want but I can take care of that later. It's the type and character I need to get first.

I'm on the lookout for a female border collie that trees like mad right now. I'm afraid that one is going to cost me though. Mostly because it's likely I'm going to have to wallet someone away from their family pet at some point. I have an old contact I'm trying to get ahold of that might make it happen for me but he's a hard guy to reach.

Anyhow, I may cross one of the 3/4 stag, 1/4 border collies with one of my Leopards and see if I can't take a shortcut.

There's all of these people that I've heard say that they don't want to live to 80 or 90 years of age...what a load! If I could reverse God's 120 limit I would do it in a heartbeat. If Jacob could sire children past 100 he could certainly go hunting once in a while. I want in that circle.

If you and I lived close to each other I would be living in the bonus room above the garage because my wife would not be happy with me. I'm already on the fence for the number of evenings one of my hunting buddies comes over. He's got a nack for showing up right before supper too. The funny thing is that he and I rarely hunt together because we're both perpetually training dogs.

There's no way that a good greyhound/stag/whippet couldn't help the heck out of the cur dogs. It almost baffles me that there aren't a bunch of people doing it already. They would add so many things and make those traits rather automatic, which is what is missing from the breeds...at least on a more consistent level. This idea used to be just that but now I've seen what they contribute to a cross first hand and it's a magic pill so to speak.

Folks aren't going to get away with just any sighthound though. They're still going to have to pick through some and find the right kind. A person could end up with the kind that doen't want anything to do with running through brush or persuing critters after they've gone out of sight. Those kind will do a cur cross no good at all. Then there are the stupid ones. There are a fair number of those around but a little extra looking and it's pretty easy to find some with half a brain. I did it so anyone can.

I've got a few more stages to finish and maybe one of these days I'll do it myself but it sure would be nice to see someone else take advantage of this.

The funniest thing that I'm getting from all of this is that what I'm proposing isn't anything new at all, it's just been thoroughly forgotten. There are a handful of old breeds that can be used to effectively augment any modern breed or just bring them back to their original intent.

I've got some more learning to do on the subject of base breeds that are used to make or change or change back modern breeds of dogs but it's a fascinating subject and worth a good amount of study. The Germans were really good at it back in the day so the info has to have been covered by someone at some time but I haven't come across any reading on the matter. Of course (just a guess) if I spoke and read German I would imagine the research would go faster. That's another thing I'm realizing pretty quickly.

Anyhow, I hope someone comes on here and lays out the history of how their family has been doing this for years and how they haven't had to go out and buy a dog for generations because theirs do all they want. That would be a treat.

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dan. if you cant find a border collie. keep in the back of your mind, german sheppards have brains plus they are very barky by nature, if they want something they bark and bark loud. when I was younger I worked for a city in the parks dept.i couldn't count the number of times I seen german sheppards lock down on a tree with a squrr. these were house pets.there treeing was as natural as any tree dog. I had one when I first met my wife he would tree anything and wouldn't quit till I told him to stop.hey watch a police show with the dutch sheppards they go crazy barking when they want the bag guy.plus they have the nose.

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Good point. I investigated the Laikas some but stayed locked onto the border collie idea. Another one that might be out of the box a little are the Norwegian Elkhounds. Talk about a bunch of treeing fools. I'm not quite sure where I'm going with all of this yet but I'll make some moves by next year. I've got to sort through a 3/4 stag, 1/4 border collie litter first. I'll be keeping two of those and moving some older dogs on. And, I still have to see if the "Wackterrier" will come through.

My dad really wants another GSD so I could work that out without having to expand my food bill. Options, options, options.

If I can make just the right Leopard pup all options will be narrowed down to one. I've been crossing 6 ways from Sun. looking for all the pieces but I keep coming up short by 1. I have a candidate here that is very close but the pup lost an eye and that's going to change how she learns but I'm going to raise her anyway and see what she does with the adversity. One slip will be her demise though.

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Regarding sight hounds crossed on curs;
Howard Carnathan did a lot of that...And that is what caused the Blackmouth Curs to have a reputation about being dog agressive.

Put 3 sight hounds in a kennel together and one will be dead before you can say Bob's your uncle.

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25 yrs ago I had a half plott half greyhound he was one heck of a coondog and treed real good. He was a killing machine and very stout dog. He would open on a cold track shut his mouth on a hot track and run to catch. He was very athletic and had plenty of brains. I always wondered what his breeding was on the plott side and never knew and knew nothing about the greyhound. But he sure was a game catching machine.
Now I have a 1/2 Mtn cur1/2 plott she is exceptional little dog and uses her brains,eyes and nose pretty well I know a couple of generations behind her and hunted with her parents quite a bit. She has lots of prey drive and will not back down from a fight but she is only 40 lbs rolling fat. I'm thinking of crossing her with one of my leps but I have some young dogs to work so I may have to hold off.
Dan have you ever thought of using a Australian Shepard I've seen several of them that would tree naturally.

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true. if a grey hound is in a big pen with others they will be wearing muzzles if not as you say they kill each other, yet I seen many make awesome family pets so gentle with kids etc. theres two dairy farmers within ten miles of me both have 3 aussie dogs . I have hunted with them all yes they all tree but they seem to lack the drive to get gone and find the game.dan iam training a laika for ed roggen in ny . I cant say any bad about this pup. he does not give a lot of mouth on the tree, I used to hide hunt and take between 300 to 500 raccoons from what I see from him at his age he would make the perfect hide dog. I will add this pup uses his eyes as well as any sight dog. he misses nothing high or low.

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Tree Em- I've got to believe that there are sighthounds that can get along for a while at least. I have had a few fights here but I as the pack leader here the show I put on when they start seems to stop them pretty quick. There have only been a few Vicki was in heat and standing about ten feet outside of their side of the truck. On a side note, the only dog fight I've ever had between the leps was a couple of years ago and it was over food and they were both pretty hungry. I think my setup here prevents opportunities to get into fights so that's a factor also but they are a little more aggressive towards each other than what I'm used to but it's not bad.

GCLC- It's nice to hear about that plott x g.h. I have spent a lot of time with my buddies dog (same cross) and that dog is pretty much the same as what you described. It's pretty cool if that type is even mildly repeatable. There are a lot of guys that would really find a dog like that useful. That's doubly so for bobcat hunters. Back when I was hunting mtn. curs on coon a lot I would have killed to have a dog like that. In fact, that doesn't sound so bad right now. I do want to end up with a really good tree dog though. I almost put Kuby (lep) in the pen with Vicki (stag x b.c.) this winter but went with a stag sire for a 3/4 litter. I'll do it later with one of the 3/4's if I can find one that is a natural tree dog. You wouldn't think I get one out of that 3/4 litter but the sire trees hard oddly enough but I think he's got a little APBT in him at about 1/8. Even odder yet is the fact that he is one of the dogs around here that gets along with everything on the yard.

CC- My beef with the aust. sheps. is that they don't seem to have the drive and operate on the same level as the b.c.'s. Add to that the luck I had when I found the b.c.'s that I've got in my lurcher blood. It goes back to a dog that came over there from Templeking that was a one of a kind type (according to Templeking himself). They are the larger hill collie type that is a sturdier and harder type of dog. Unfortunately I'm not getting a lot of tree out of that stuff but I'll bet it pops up at some point and a little inbreeding can go a long way when that happens. On a side note, Mike won the big Las Vegas race with a bird he bred and raised by 15 minutes! That guy is on fire.

On the issue of the laika, some of those seem like very good candidates for this kind of thing but I can't seem to get my brain to move away from the border collie. Granted, it took me a couple of years of observing different lines of b.c. to finally make a decision on which ones to use but there are loads of very good b.c.'s out there to use also and that by itself is a big bonus. I like options.

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Dan. a farmer friend of mine has a border collie named Obama. the dogs a treeing nut on any game. he neutered him a few years back to keep him home he was always in the bush treeing squrr coon etc.he has never got a skunk or touched a porky and theres lots of porkys in that bush. iam pretty sure his parents came from Scotland a few years back I tried to track down his breeder but they had sold the farm and were living in a old age home. good luck with your adventure.

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I had two Busher x Grey Hound back in the 80s they hunted to wild and deep and they lost some tree and i crossed them back on a Streak x Feist and i got the tree back but they still hunted to deep for me, they was still 3 or 4 of this cross going and a friend of mine had them but he crossed them back over a Hound x Pit for hogs as catch dogs and some kin of mine got two pups from him about 8 years ago and crossed them back to a Feist and then a real small Cur and they are getting some nice gritty 20 lb to 30 lb tree minded pups from them, I have been thinking about getting a pup off them and blending it back in my dogs, I have dabbled with just about all tree dogs and crossed them into each other in some fashion and i think i dislike the Norwegian more than any of them because anything i crossed them into it took the nose out and made them just about a straight sight dog and it is hard to ever get that coat broke down on the cross but i will give them credit on the tree they will put that in a cross, i have had a few Finnish Spitz and crossed them over other dogs and i think that would be a good cross to a Grey Hound they are smart tree minded and will burn the woods down and they put it back in a cross, how do you like that Jag cross ? i thought about them myself but the only thing is everyone i have seen that was crossed were real mean and ill with other dogs and people but made good hunting dogs.

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CC- I know they're out there, I just have to find one now. I've seen them over the years but when I look for one they seem to be hiding. This Spring I'll have some more time to travel around and check a few more kennels.

Moleman- You've quite a few crosses under your belt. I may switch my line of thought about the laikas but I'm going to have to see a few first. I'm glad you added the info about the N.E.'s. I don't think there are a lot of people that have extensive experience with them, much less crossing them. That was a little jewel of information right there. I'm right with you about the jagdterriers. I have been spoiled to have had a line for quite a while that was well behaved. It was one of the things I checked into when talking to the breeder of the "Wackterrier" litter and the jagdterrier sire checked out in that department...the whippet dame too for that matter. That cross could go horribly wrong if the wrong types were used. Could you imagine a very nervous whippet type with an overly aggressive jagd male? What a disaster that would be! The pup I have is tops. He's only 14 weeks old but if he doesn't make a useful dog I will be shocked. He's already learned many obedience commands and is great with the kids and other dogs. I've got him in the house with a nine week old german wirehaired pointer that is possessive of the food dish and he lets her get away with murder without any backlash whatsoever. He's also the most agile pup of his age that I've ever seen. If his speed matches his agility in another year he will be like a fur covered .22 rifle. I wish that whole litter were mine to distribute to the right dog men because if the rest are as good as mine it's going to be a litter of note.

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The laika is probably the most natural tree dogs I've seen. Probably the most agile while chasing and right up there with the collie on smarts. Not sure how they would cross on anything though. They're a little more "wild". Remember you can find a wolf in a laikas pedigree a lot closer than a hound. That being said they tend to hunt with the desire to kill but smart enough, agile enough to not get killed themselves. Very loyal to their master though. They hunt with you but they are hunting for themselves. Most laikas are treeing by 4-5 month old if taken to the woods to run free often. The only training they need is, come and no. Most will tree on their own naturally if the pup get put in the woods. No training to hunt it's natural. And the are probably the most accurate tree dogs. They'll be sitting there treed looking at the critter. If it moves they see it. If it bails out, they catch it. And no they're not just a sight treeing dog they use there nose extremely well. They wind, they run a track heads up, wolf like. And they have the hair for the harsh winters. Excellent feet and the stamina to hunt day after day also. I'm not sure if it would produce what you want but I don't think it'll hurt...

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Dan, I am at a point right now that my hands are tied behind my back as far as raising any pups or getting dogs but within the next year i plan on making a cross for Coyote, I now where a Drahthaar x Blue Lacy is and a Stag Hound x Ridgeback, we were thinking about crossing the two to use to run down Coyote and kill them after the track dogs flush them out, it would be about the same as hog hunting with catch dogs but with about triple the speed with the kill dog and if it don't pan out we are going to try and cross them back over the first cross i was talking about and see how that works, you never know how a cross will work until you do it and just because it looks good in your eyes or on paper don't mean it will work and on the other hand you will never know unless you try and see what happens.

A over looked dog in my opinion to make crosses like you have brought up is a Doberman have you ever looked at how they are made up in the way and the dogs that were used half the work is done and i can say they are one smart dog and i have seen a few that would tree and they will bay and fight anything they run up on, i have never tried them in a cross but it is the back of my head and been there a while now.

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It's the wild side that is the limiting factor for me. At least that's the way it plays out in my mind. The right laika could change my mind though.

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moleman- There's a line of bear dogs in MI. that have a little dobie in there and I've heard some good things about it in other places. It is fairly hard to find a good one suited for the field and of course, they wouldn't do anything for the coat. I've got a stag male that has an eighth APBT in him. He's as good of a get-a-long dog with all of my other dogs as I have. He's running over 40 m.p.h., tracking well on warm to hot tracks, and he trees like a good curdog. He also has a nice coat, is 28" @ 100# and is a natural neck dog. If I could have a half dozen of him I would take them. In fact, I do have three of his pups out of a good stag female right now. So far, they are awesome game getters but they do not have the capacity for thinking that the stag x b.c. lurchers do and if I could put that together I would be one BIG step closer to what it is I'm looking for in the end. Fortunately, the lurcher female is exceptional and she was bred to that stag male and is due to whelp around the 3rd of March so I'll have the answer to that question in about 1 1/2 years. I have a feeling that I'll like those dogs a lot but I'll still be wanting for the tree. If they tree...I'll be taking reservations for pups as a full time job.

I'll be able to test for natural tree at a fairly young age so it won't really take me that long but if any of them don't like to tree I'll likely sell them of to the coyote hunters and move on.

I do have a nice line on a very old line of draathars that I may take advantage of. This line is one of the toughest lines of dogs I know of. The problem with them is that they've been the rental dogs at a hunt club for around 40 years and have not been selected for treeing. I've got some work to do on that before I make any decisions yet.

I've got a pretty good list of tests for dogs to evaluate a variety of things earlier than just hunting the dogs so that keeps me moving along.

Anyhow, I'm getting a little off topic. Let's hear about some more crosses.

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Mr. McDonough I found your post very interesting. I participated in the Day time Coondog field trials and swim races for nearly 30 years. I can safely say I've seen every sight hound cross imaginable. Greyhounds , Whippets, Saluki's ...crossed with every coon hound breed , collies, Airedales , Shepards , pit bulls, and the various cur breeds, and bird dogs ...LOL and all those crosses , crossed back into each other. Also seen full Greys, and Saluki's , ran and swam...never a full blood whippet, that I can ever recall.
Here is my belief ANY dog can be trained to hunt, if you get them young enough. However More to the point of your post, and some of the other responder's have touched on it. These various crosses were bred to be high strung/aggressive, very competitive dogs . Let me put this way, their is a reason that in both swim racing and Field Trials muzzles are "mandatory" on all dogs. If you made the cross you are thinking of, I would keep a close eye out for this aggressive behavior , and get a handle on it early. In regards to treeing ability , again I believe ANY dog can be trained to do whatever you want it to do..Example I have a beagle that will tree squirrels, I don't want him to do it..In fact I discourage it. However as a pup he was exposed to a high population of squirrels on my property....so he just took to it. With that said these so-called treeing greyhounds may not be what they appear to be. When I started in the 60's the tracks were longer , and tougher, a dog actually had to track, and in some cases even had to fence. The "Tree dogs" in both field trials and swim races had to "honor the tree" meaning face and look at or up the tree. The heavily bred greyhound crosses 5/8ths and 3/4 crosses rarely got tree , and were running/swimming for line money. However , over the many years and for various reasons , which I won't go into . The tracks became shorter mowed paths , less tracking ability needed , therefore more owners bred grey into the these crosses..more aggressive dogs, and more "face" and "fight barking " dogs were being awarded tree. In fact in swim racing , the rules were changed to award tree to "The first dog to bark in the circle" period . IMO It didn't enhance or encourage owners to breed for treeing ability , but rather breed more aggressive dogs. One thing it did do, was take a lot of the arguing among owners and tree judges out of the sport, at least a lot of it. So the point being, these sight hounds IMO , did not improve their treeing ability , but rather , the rules were changed to give that appearance.
Mr. McDonough , I can tell from your post and from many of the responders that seem to know you, that you are good dog man , with much experience. You surely don't need any advice from me. Again I enjoyed your post , and I thought I would share what I have observed with these sight hound crosses. Good luck with your project , if you choose to go forward. I know you will do well.

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Mike- That was a very interesting write up there. That's a pool of knowledge that is not easy to get. Right place right time. I've been to quite a few field trials, mostly bear and a few for whatever folks could catch the day before. One of the best was an invite only field trial a friend of mine put on. There were all sorts of animals being run and it was great to see how some of the same dogs would run different critters. There was never much for oddball dogs at those trials though. I ran my Brittany in one once just for some fun and I've put jagdterriers in the swim races. They would have gotten killed in the land race because of aggressive dogs and those jagds don't back down. I did race against a stag once down in Il. but that's about it outside of hounds and curs. If we had big races like that I would be there quite a bit. I have a lot of fun memories from those days.

I keep my standards on dog aggression high and have a pretty good pack of dogs that get along well with other dogs.

I have a stag that I value quite a bit named Duce. He's a good stag but he's more. He's a good track dog and he trees like a coondog should. Like you mentioned, he spent his first year of life running loose with coondogs and it had a great effect on him. He's got about 1/8 bulldog in him and that sure doesn't hurt for treeing. It all came together well in him and he gets along with other dogs as well as anything I've got. He is the basis for the sighthound side of my crosses now and it's working out well as long as I don't get impatient and breed something else in and muddy that pool.

What I don't have much experience with is the sighthound x coonhound crosses. I'd be very interested to hear about crosses that treed well. I'm relatively certain it has less to do with the breed used as it does to do with the individual dog used in the cross so at this point I'm trying to remain as breed blind as I can in that respect. I do leave open that there may likely be a cross out there that works well for producing good tree dogs in the same way the sighthound x border collie produces a high number of useful lurchers.

I'm having a very good time with it all, that's for sure.

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My side, side project:

Whippet x Jagdterrier

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Location: Ohio
Posts: 72

Pretty little dog, what type of game do you intend to pursue with this cross.

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mike

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Registered: Mar 2006
Location: Superstition Mtns., AZ
Posts: 1166

Everything aside from bears and porkies...if his speed is good enough.

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Dan McDonough
507-261-9121 (C)
jagdlep@yahoo.com
Superstition Mtns., AZ
American Leopard Hounds
& Lurchers

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Registered: Jul 2014
Location: p.a.
Posts: 275

quote:

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Originally posted by Dan McDonough
My side, side project:

Whippet x Jagdterrier

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yellow gold!

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Registered: Mar 2006
Location: Superstition Mtns., AZ
Posts: 1166

A good profile shot is in order. I'll get one soon. He's got pretty good leg. Oddly enough, some lines of jagdterriers are much faster than they appear to be able to go. The line I used to run was like that. People were always saying how they couldn't believe a dog of that size and proportion could run as fast as they did. The jagdterrier sire used in this cross is of that type. Add to that the contribution of the whippet and I'm guessing that Diesel will be very fast. He has already shown that he can turn hard at a full run and he will only get stronger in that ability as he matures.

Now, I doubt Diesel will be as fast as his whippet mother but he will certainly be a lot tougher and be able to take the knocks of day to day hunting. That's always been the problem with full whippets...they break to easy.

Oh, and I forgot one important thing. He'll have much more endurance than a full whippet. That's never something to forget.

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Dan McDonough
507-261-9121 (C)
jagdlep@yahoo.com
Superstition Mtns., AZ
American Leopard Hounds
& Lurchers

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Registered: Oct 2003
Location: South Carolina
Posts: 102

quote:

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Originally posted by beagler/mike
Mr. McDonough I found your post very interesting. I participated in the Day time Coondog field trials and swim races for nearly 30 years. ..... in swim racing , the rules were changed to award tree to "The first dog to bark in the circle" period . IMO It didn't enhance or encourage owners to breed for treeing ability , but rather breed more aggressive dogs. One thing it did do, was take a lot of the arguing among owners and tree judges out of the sport, at least a lot of it. So the point being, these sight hounds IMO , did not improve their treeing ability , but rather , the rules were changed to give that appearance.

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