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Hoosier Man1
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Oct 2010
Location: Ohio
Posts: 6868

Garmin Hunt?

I was judging a cast last night when I had my first ever garmin incincident. 3 dogs were struck about 100 yards in front of us. Handler of 4th dog pulls his garmin out and says his is way through the country and we need to split the difference. Keep in mind this dog is not struck in. I asked the handler if he heard his dog he said no but we need to walk that way.

Now my response was no we will not walk to a dog not heard based on you looking at your garmin. Garmins are not intended to be used in that way. He threw a big fit and caused a big stink about it.

What do you guys think about this?

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08-23-2015 09:08 PM

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sleepy head
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Registered: May 2015
Location: IN
Posts: 2760

What if they were all though the country and not struck?

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08-23-2015 09:30 PM

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GA DAWG
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Jun 2003
Location: North GA
Posts: 14395

I think you did right. Cant walk to something you cant hear. Garmin means nothing.

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08-23-2015 09:32 PM

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JiM
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Registered: Sep 2010
Location: New Paris, Indiana
Posts: 7076

You absolutely did right. Everything UKC has written on that subject supports you.

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08-23-2015 09:35 PM

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sleepy head
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Registered: May 2015
Location: IN
Posts: 2760

I don't see a problem with splitting the difference, example cut dogs loose north somewhere along the way they take a hard left down wind is the cast going to keep walking north

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08-23-2015 10:15 PM

groworg1
UKC Forum Member

Registered: May 2008
Location: Gillett, Pa
Posts: 1876

poor sportsmanship right here ! no different then not calling a time out for a dog in danger poor sportsmanship

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08-23-2015 10:20 PM

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RLenhart
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Dec 2013
Location: PA.
Posts: 1738

quote:
Originally posted by sleepy head
I don't see a problem with splitting the difference, example cut dogs loose north somewhere along the way they take a hard left down wind is the cast going to keep walking north

You right... If nothing else you at least try to walk to higher ground to try to get to where everybody's dog can be heard.

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08-23-2015 10:20 PM

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Hoosier Man1
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Oct 2010
Location: Ohio
Posts: 6868

With the way some of these dog blow through the country I can't agree or see letting handlers dictate where to walk to a dog that is not barking based on the garmin.

The garmin to the best of my knowledge was passed to allow the handers to keep their dogs off roads and out of danger not for using it to keep up with them in the cast.

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08-23-2015 10:32 PM

Hoosier Man1
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Oct 2010
Location: Ohio
Posts: 6868

quote:
Originally posted by groworg1
poor sportsmanship right here ! no different then not calling a time out for a dog in danger poor sportsmanship

You need to read the rules before you say anything about having poor sportsmanship. A handler at any time can withdraw and go snatch his dog up if its in danger. It comes down to a cast vote. Imagine the chaos in a cast if you have a dog that keeps running and finding the roads and the cast keeps calling timeout every time.

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08-23-2015 10:39 PM

JiM
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Sep 2010
Location: New Paris, Indiana
Posts: 7076

quote:
Originally posted by groworg1
poor sportsmanship right here ! no different then not calling a time out for a dog in danger poor sportsmanship

How can it ever be poor sportsmanship to follow the rules. UKC has gone to great lengths to make this one so crystal clear and then when someone does exactly what UKC instructs us to do, they gets accused of poor sportsmanship.
Groworg, you need to rethink what you just posted.

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08-23-2015 10:48 PM

Reece Samuelson
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Registered: Jul 2010
Location: IOWA
Posts: 510

I think you done the right thing being that dog wasn't struck in....its just tough luck that his dog blew in there deep n hadn't struck or you all just couldn't hear him

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08-23-2015 11:13 PM

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GA DAWG
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Jun 2003
Location: North GA
Posts: 14395

Didnt expect some of these answers but you can bet your tail I want be walking toward where your garmin says your dog is thats not even struck. Youll just have to cry and moan and carry on and maybe cuss. Then youll be headed home early and can by all means go to your dog then.

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08-23-2015 11:23 PM

rthompson
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Aug 2013
Location: sw mo
Posts: 971

You done right they have to open to split the difference.

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08-24-2015 12:22 AM

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Hoosier Man1
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Oct 2010
Location: Ohio
Posts: 6868

quote:
Originally posted by GA DAWG
Didnt expect some of these answers but you can bet your tail I want be walking toward where your garmin says your dog is thats not even struck. Youll just have to cry and moan and carry on and maybe cuss. Then youll be headed home early and can by all means go to your dog then.

This guy did all you mentioned and then some last night.

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08-24-2015 12:44 AM

Bruce M. Conkey
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I think this is amazing. You can ask the most simple rule question on here and get a variety of answeres. Ask one about a Garmin and most know the correct answer. I am impressed.

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08-24-2015 12:50 AM

joey
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Jun 2012
Location: McRae Ar
Posts: 3701

Did you have too? No, but had the guy not had his garmin and just asked can we walk this way to see if I can hear my dog. Would you have done it?

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08-24-2015 02:53 AM

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john Duemmer
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Mar 2008
Location: Western N.Y.
Posts: 4005

quote:
Originally posted by joey
Did you have too? No, but had the guy not had his garmin and just asked can we walk this way to see if I can hear my dog. Would you have done it?

Thats a very good question, i dont understand why splitting the difference would be a problem, i dont think useing telemetry to more accuratly keep all dogs in hearing range when possible goes against UKCs rules. Your not scoreing dogs based on the garmin you are simply putting the cast in the best possible spot to judge them all fairly.
What if the entire cast hasnt been heard from and the garmins show they have topped a ridge and are out of hearing, i bet those handlers wouldnt have a problem then hikeing up that hill to get them in hearing based on that garmin information.

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08-24-2015 03:34 AM

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JiM
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Sep 2010
Location: New Paris, Indiana
Posts: 7076

Here is an example where UKC has made it as clear as it possibly could how it is to be handled and still we have guys coming back with all these good reasons why it should be done differently.

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08-24-2015 03:47 AM

john Duemmer
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Mar 2008
Location: Western N.Y.
Posts: 4005

quote:
Originally posted by JiM
You absolutely did right. Everything UKC has written on that subject supports you.

I guess we cant agree on this one Jim, UKC has supported the use of garmin info to get a dog within hearing, the situation was on allowing a handler to lead the cast while the 8 was running which is a different circumstance but they still supported the use of the garmin to position the cast where they could best judge the dog. I hope Allen weighs in on this one.
Maybe the difference will boil down to the fact that in this case the dog hadnt been struck but anytime we can position the cast to best judge all the dogs accuratly its a good thing. I wouldnt support moveing if it was going to hinder or interfear with the struck dogs but if they are just to lazy to do some walkin they shoulda stayed home.

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Last edited by john Duemmer on 08-24-2015 at 04:54 AM

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08-24-2015 03:55 AM

joey
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Jun 2012
Location: McRae Ar
Posts: 3701

quote:
Originally posted by JiM
Here is an example where UKC has made it as clear as it possibly could how it is to be handled and still we have guys coming back with all these good reasons why it should be done differently.

You want get an argument from me that you cant use a garmin to score a dog. I also realize what the rule is and I know what he did was within the rules but I don't think UKC intentions where not to go in the direction of the dog because he knows where it is on the Garmin.I have walked with out hearing a dog hundreds of times before there ever was a garmin so why should knowing where he is keep us from doing the same thing now?

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08-24-2015 05:41 AM

JiM
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Sep 2010
Location: New Paris, Indiana
Posts: 7076

I think where the cast walks is up to the judge. If he declined to walk away from dogs that are struck and trailing to go to a dog that isn't even struck in on the card, that is his decision and the Garmin does not overrule anything.
You really think it is fair to ask a cast to walk away from dogs that are struck and trailing in search if a dog that isn't even on the card?

Last edited by JiM on 08-24-2015 at 06:07 AM

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08-24-2015 05:51 AM

joey
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Jun 2012
Location: McRae Ar
Posts: 3701

quote:
Originally posted by JiM
I think where the cast walks is up to the judge. If he declined to walk away from dogs that are struck and trailing to go to a dog that isn't even struck in on the card, that is his decision and the Garmin does not overrule anything.

I agree but the comments that are being given would lead you to believe ukc condones the cast not walking to where they can hear the dogs because of the Garmin. Thats what I was disputing.

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08-24-2015 06:02 AM

JiM
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Sep 2010
Location: New Paris, Indiana
Posts: 7076

quote:
Originally posted by joey
I agree but the comments that are being given would lead you to believe ukc condones the cast not walking to where they can hear the dogs because of the Garmin. Thats what I was disputing.

ok, so was it poor sportsmanship on the judges part or not?

You guys need to read rule #3 of the Telemetry Rules from the Coonhound Advisor. Posted 1/13/2014. "At no time may a handler demand the cast walk in the direction of a dog that has not been heard opening." That covers it for me.

Last edited by JiM on 08-24-2015 at 06:23 AM

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08-24-2015 06:10 AM

joey
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Jun 2012
Location: McRae Ar
Posts: 3701

Hard to judge sportsmanship without witnessing it.

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08-24-2015 06:19 AM

Jrkb2012
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Nov 2013
Location: Convoy,Ohio
Posts: 1693

quote:
Originally posted by JiM

You guys need to read rule #3 of the Telemetry Rules from the Coonhound Advisor. Posted 1/13/2014. "At no time may a handler demand the cast walk in the direction of a dog that has not been heard opening." That covers it for me.

X3,,,that says it all right there.

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08-24-2015 07:42 AM