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Danny Glista
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Registered: Aug 2006
Location: Berlin Center,Oh
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Does a trainer make a top hound!

Or do they do it on thier own? With all the young hounds I see on here that are over a year old and lightly started makes me wonder what's going on. Here at my kennel I raise a litter that I would be proud to own one from but yet after they leave I see or hear nothing about how they are doing nor thier progress on a lot of them. Yes.I know they don't all make it! Been hunting blues for 49 years!Just answer the ? Does the owner make the top hound or not even if the youngster has it in him to get the job done! Maybe I need to start starting pups for the public or maybe I'm just down right lucky with my outcomes to date! Answer the ? please!! That's all!! Danny G.

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Paul Toth
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It is really pretty simple Danny; they are born with certain abilities that the trainer can enhance or take out and ruin. Most coonhunters do not have a clue.

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BIG$BLUES
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quote:
Originally posted by Paul Toth
It is really pretty simple Danny; they are born with certain abilities that the trainer can enhance or take out and ruin. Most coonhunters do not have a clue.
x2

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rance56
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Registered: Jun 2003
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Starting a top dog is easy. Finishing one out to a top coonhound is a whole nother. Starting a dog just takes a lot of time. I think most don't know how to adjust a started when issues pop up

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Ron Moore
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Registered: Jan 2006
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Good question Danny

I personally believe that coondogs are born. It's true, they all don't make it but all should be given a fair chance. We only have control over the man made things such as commands, leading, loading, handling, etc... We can't change their voice, color, conformation, nose, tracking and treeing stile. These can only be changed through a good breeding program and then it's just a chance we take. A hound is born with it's make up, we just help refine it by hunting them. The e-collar has made it much easier for us. You, I and many others can remember when we didn't have these new devices for training. Sometimes I wonder how I got along without them, LOL! In trying to answer your question, I believe a top coonhound is born and needs to get in the right hands to end up that way. A top coonhound in the wrong hands could possibly be just another coondog or maybe even less. Keeping them in the woods should bring out the best or worse in them, that's where we come in with direction. Getting a good product to start with is a plus! Well, that's my 2 cents worth, that and a $5 bill might get you a cup of coffee

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Danny Glista
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Guys!

Thanks for ur post! Keep them coming if you would!! Very interesting!! Danny G.

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Danny Glista
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Ron

I think for $5 bucks,could get me a coffee and a single egg with toast!! Great answer!! Danny G.

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breezyoaks
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Born or trained ?

I truely believe the once in a lifetime dogs are born that way.
THEY ARE GONNA TREE COON and run circles around 95% of hounds, NO MATTER WHO THE TRAINER IS....

Other decent dogs might start earlier with xtra training, and be a nice dog too with time, but the ones that should be studded out and or bred are born that way....no matter who the handler or trainer is........

Jmo....pbarrett

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msinc
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A puppy can be considered successful for many different things....can you define your version of "making it"????? It's true that many dogs get ruined by the "trainer", it's also true that one persons idea of ruined is another hunters idea of just what they were looking for. One example of this is the young dog that hunted very wide and now checks in because the trainer trained him to do it. The guy that wants him to go until he finds a coon will consider him ruined for his intents. That's just one example of what very few people will ever agree on. I believe many people have unrealistic expectations of what a coon dog should do and when.
If you are talking competition success then what about the fantastic dogs that ended up in a pleasure hunters hands??? If you are referring to success in the breeding pen then there's the question of was it done for the money alone {5000 pups but a 5.5% rate ='s new pickup truck} or for the reproducing rate {170 pups at 14.0% ='s no new truck but name in the magazine} Either dog still goes down in history, he just got there differently.
Then there's the thing about what you hear and how much about the pups...I have pups from a few breeders I contact and update on a fairly regular basis. They treated me right and we have become pretty good friends. I have known some I could care less if I ever talk to again, but it aint because of the dog.

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rance56
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I think the trainor makes a difference on the bad nights an when huntng with trashy slick treeing idiots. A good dog that his training consists of turning him loose an getting him of the tree might not look good on the above nights without the right handling along the way. Just my opinion though

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Casey Bigelow
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Same question has been a huge debate for scientists for hundreds of years ( mostly in humans). It's called "Nature Vs. Nurture"- Stories of twins (littermates- HAHA) separated at birth and how they turn out abound.

Search Nature vs. Nurture

Nature vs Nurture in Psychology

by Saul McLeod twitter icon published 2007


This debate within psychology is concerned with the extent to which particular aspects of behavior are a product of either inherited (i.e. genetic) or acquired (i.e. learned) characteristics.


Nature is what we think of as pre-wiring and is influenced by genetic inheritance and other biological factors. Nurture is generally taken as the influence of external factors after conception e.g. the product of exposure, experience and learning on an individual. The nature-nurture debate is concerned with the relative contribution that both influences make to behaviour.

It has long been known that certain physical characteristics are biologically determined by genetic inheritance. Color of eyes, straight or curly hair, pigmentation of the skin and certain diseases (such as Huntingdon’s chorea) are all a function of the genes we inherit. Other physical characteristics, if not determined, appear to be at least strongly influenced by the genetic make-up of our biological parents.

Height, weight, hair loss (in men), life expectancy and vulnerability to specific illnesses (e.g. breast cancer in women) are positively correlated between genetically related individuals. These facts have led many to speculate as to whether psychological characteristics such as behavioral tendencies, personality attributes and mental abilities are also “wired in” before we are even born.

Those who adopt an extreme heredity position are known as nativists. Their basic assumption is that the characteristics of the human species as a whole are a product of evolution and that individual differences are due to each person’s unique genetic code. In general, the earlier a particular ability appears, the more likely it is to be under the influence of genetic factors.

Characteristics and differences that are not observable at birth, but which emerge later in life, are regarded as the product of maturation. That is to say we all have an inner “biological clock” which switches on (or off) types of behavior in a pre programmed way. The classic example of the way this affects our physical development are the bodily changes that occur in early adolescence at puberty. However nativists also argue that maturation governs the emergence of attachment in infancy, language acquisition and even cognitive development as a whole.

At the other end of the spectrum are the environmentalists – also known as empiricists (not to be confused with the other empirical / scientific approach). Their basic assumption is that at birth the human mind is a tabula rasa (a blank slate) and that this is gradually “filled” as a result of experience (e.g. behaviorism).

From this point of view psychological characteristics and behavioral differences that emerge through infancy and childhood are the result of learning. It is how you are brought up (nurture) that governs the psychologically significant aspects of child development and the concept of maturation applies only to the biological.

For example, when an infant forms an attachment it is responding to the love and attention it has received, language comes from imitating the speech of others and cognitive development depends on the degree of stimulation in the environment and, more broadly, on the civilization within which the child is reared.

Examples of an extreme nature positions in psychology include Bowlby's (1969) theory of attachment, which views the bond between mother and child as being an innate process that ensures survival. Likewise, Chomsky (1965) proposed language is gained through the use of an innate language acquisition device. Another example of nature is Freud's theory of aggression as being an innate drive (called thanatos).

In contrast Bandura's (1977) social learning theory states that aggression is a learnt from the environment through observation and imitation. This is seen in his famous bobo doll experiment (Bandura, 1961). Also Skinner (1957) believed that language is learnt from other people via behavior shaping techniques.

In practice hardly anyone today accepts either of the extreme positions. There are simply too many “facts” on both sides of the argument which are inconsistent with an “all or nothing” view. So instead of asking whether child development is down to nature or nurture the question has been reformulated as “How much?” That is to say, given that heredity and environment both influence the person we become, which is the more important?

This question was first framed by Francis Galton in the late 19th century. Galton (himself a relative of Charles Darwin) was convinced that intellectual ability was largely inherited and that the tendency for “genius” to run in families was the outcome of a natural superiority.

This view has cropped up time and again in the history of psychology and has stimulated much of the research into intelligence testing (particularly on separated twins and adopted children). A modern proponent is the American psychologist Arthur Jenson. Finding that the average I.Q. scores of black Americans were significantly lower than whites he went on to argue that genetic factors were mainly responsible – even going so far as to suggest that intelligence is 80% inherited.

The storm of controversy that developed around Jenson’s claims was not mainly due to logical and empirical weaknesses in his argument. It was more to do with the social and political implications that are often drawn from research that claims to demonstrate natural inequalities between social groups.



Galton himself in 1883 suggested that human society could be improved by “better breeding”. In the 1920’s the American Eugenics Society campaigned for the sterilization of men and women in psychiatric hospitals. Today in Britain many believe that the immigration policies are designed to discriminate against Black and Asian ethnic groups. However the most chilling of all implications drawn from this view of the natural superiority of one race over another took place in the concentration camps of Nazi Germany.

For many environmentalists there is a barely disguised right wing agenda behind the work of the behavioral geneticists. In their view part of the difference in the I.Q. scores of different ethnic groups is due to in built biases in the methods of testing. More fundamentally they believe that differences in intellectual ability are a product of social inequalities in access to material resources and opportunities. To put it simply children brought up in the ghetto tend to score lower on tests because they are denied the same life chances as more privileged members of society.

Now we can see why the nature-nurture debate has become such a hotly contested issue. What begins as an attempt to understand the causes of behavioral differences often develops into a politically motivated dispute about distributive justice and power in society. What’s more this doesn’t only apply to the debate over I.Q. It is equally relevant to the psychology of sex and gender where the question of how much of the (alleged) differences in male and female behavior is due to biology and how much to culture is just as controversial.

However in recent years there has been a growing realization that the question of “how much” behavior is due to heredity and “how much” to environment may itself be the wrong question. Take intelligence as an example. Like almost all types of human behavior it is a complex, many-sided phenomenon which reveals itself (or not!) in a great variety of ways. The “how much” question assumes that the variables can all be expressed numerically and that the issue can be resolved in a quantitative manner. The reality is that nature and culture interact in a host of qualitatively different ways.

It is widely accepted now that heredity and the environment do not act independently. Instead of defending extreme nativist or nurturist views, most psychological researchers are now interested in investigating the ways in which nature and nurture interact. For example, in psychopathology, this means that both a genetic predisposition and an appropriate environmental trigger are required for a mental disorder to develop.

This realization is especially important given the recent advances in genetics. The Human Genome Project for example has stimulated enormous interest in tracing types of behavior to particular strands of DNA located on specific chromosomes. Newspaper reports announce that scientists are on the verge of discovering (or have already discovered) the gene for criminality, for alcoholism or the “gay gene”.

If these advances are not to be abused then there will need to be a more general understanding of the fact that biology interacts with both the cultural context and the personal choices that people make about how they want to live their lives. There is no neat and simple way of unraveling these qualitatively different and reciprocal influences on human behavior.



References


Bandura, A. Ross, D., & Ross, S. A. (1961). Transmission of aggression through the imitation of aggressive models. Journal of Abnormal and Social Psychology, 63, 575-582

Bandura, A. (1977). Social learning theory. Englewood Cliffs, NJ: Prentice Hall.

Bowlby, J. (1969). Attachment. Attachment and loss: Vol. 1. Loss. New York: Basic Books.

Chomsky, N. (1965). Aspects of the theory of syntax. MIT Press.

Galton, F. (1883). Inquiries into human faculty and its development. London: J.M. Dent & Co.

Skinner, B. F. (1957). Verbal behavior. Acton, MA: Copley Publishing Group.



CITATION:


McLeod, S. A. (2007). Nature Nurture in Psychology.

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Casey Bigelow
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In addition to the Nature (genetic) Vs Nurture (training), I believe geographic location is an important factor to consider when training a coonhound.

One would think it would be easier to train a pup in an area w/ high coon population vs. a place where coons are extremely thin. Ideally, you would want a high coon population with a low trash population.

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pamjohnson
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i would have to also ask 1st what the person views as a top hound. can a top hound have a fault at all? extreme in some area's or balanced all around?
i have trained many young hounds. always looking for better. must be the trainer' fault lol! and if it is the trainer fault it's not for the lack of hunting and trying to train them to the best of my ability.

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Ron Moore
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Wow Casey

Not sure I was ready for all that but it sure made for some interesting reading. Some very good references! I'm still wondering what your answer would be to Danny's question, does the trainer make a top hound or do they do it on their own?

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Casey Bigelow
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By the way, I didn't type all that, I copied/pasted, but I cited giving credit to author(s).

To answer the question I would have to say Absolutely..... and Heck no!!!!!!... HAHAAHAH

1) I think that an excellent trainer will have very limited success with a hound that just "doesn't have it" genetically.

2) In contrast, I think a poor trainer will have pretty good success with a genetically superior hound.

It's a grey area.....I would base the training vs. genetic ability on a scale... you are going to have the trainers ability on one axis and the dogs ability on the other axis.....
A)The best case scenario is a great trainer with a genetically superior hound.
B) The worst case scenario is a poor trainer w/ a genetically inferior hound.

MOST OF US (trainers) AND HOUNDS (individual genetic ability) WOULD FIT SOMEWHERE IN BETWEEN THE BEST CASE AND WORST CASES

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Pigeon
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Not saying one way or another because I don't know........but, why does it seem the same people always have a good one? Gotta be some training.

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msinc
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quote:
Originally posted by Pigeon
Not saying one way or another because I don't know........but, why does it seem the same people always have a good one? Gotta be some training.


I agree, I have seen that for a right good while...and it could be that they are doing some homework picking their pups or already picked the good ones and are doing something right to continuing the line.
Used to be a guy in central Virginia that always had a fantastic dog at one of the hunts around that area. He hunted local and I never saw any ads. Tall, thin, white faced guy with white hair...that was back in the late 80's to early 90's. Probably out of by now. Cant remember his name, but he was a nice fella that really enjoyed running his dogs in the hunts.

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recon
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quote:
Originally posted by Pigeon
........but, why does it seem the same people always have a good one?


I asked this question once and here was the reply I received:

"Because those people are not buying the dogs that are FOR SALE. They are buying the dogs that are NOT FOR SALE"

After pondering this for a while, I believe in most cases he was correct. If you look at even the top reproducers numbers of all breeds, you have to agree that the vast majority of pups do not make top dogs, regardless of the stud or their training. "Good ones" are the minority. When you constantly see the same person with a top dog, you will probably find out that he heard about a good one and bought that top dog back from someone. Most of the top breeders/hunters/promoters do this often. I doubt that very many of those people who always have a top dog are raising and training all of those top dogs at their kennel from birth to being finished out. If their luck is that good, they should be giving up dogs and frequenting Vegas!!!

I will admit that the top dog I ever owned, I bought. I heard about him and was told he was NOT FOR SALE. It took me six months and probably too much money to get him bought. I had absolutely nothing to do with his breeding or training, but sure enjoyed the time I got to spend with him in the woods and at the hunts after I bought him!!!! If I could find another one that suited me that was NOT FOR SALE, I would do it again, but until then I will just keep hunting what I have and hope they someday are NOT FOR SALE!!!

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recon
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Smile

Other than taking them to the woods, I don't think a trainer can make a dog much better than his natural ability is going to allow him to be; however, I absolutely believe a trainer can ruin a dog that is born with talent when he starts trying to "train". I've seen that a lot!!!

For that reason, I try to do very little training. I just hunt them hard and see what happens. If they show me natural traits, we keep hunting. If not, I move on. I want to hunt dogs that suit me naturally. I don't want to have to train them to hunt, train them to tree, train them to be independent, train them to be accurate, etc..... I prefer they train themselves.

I've always heard the trainer needs to be smarter than the dog. I'm not sure I qualify, so I just hunt them

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Ron Moore
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Some good points!

I do know some top dogs that were bought and campaigned or finished and then campaigned and studded out. Another thing is publicity. Once you own a good hound like that, one must know how to advertise it. Many good hounds go unused because of this or because their owners just don't get into the hype. I've seen this more than once.

I've probably been more fortunate than most. I've raised more than my share of pups that made very good hounds and a couple were top, IMO. But I also had way more that weren't. Buying a pup is like buying a lottery ticket, it's the expectation of what you might get! I enjoy this thread, good answers, keep them coming.

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steve bankston
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Trainers

quote:
Originally posted by BIG$BLUES
x2


X 3! A good trainer can bring out the FULL Potential of a pup that the breeder bred for. Or a bad trainer can ruin that pup or never give it a chance. Does the trainer make the hound? No. The trainer should give the well bred pup the chance to make himself by putting them in the timber and steering them in the right direction. Then the breeding and potential of that pup will bubble to the surface and you will see what you have or don't have.

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Danny Glista
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Thanks for the imputs!

A trainer has everything to do with making a top hound. No way can one excel to be the very best without one and it starts at the age of 3 weeks old. That's just my opinion and I'll explain why I believe in this when I get a bit more time. The one that puts a collar on the pup.puts him in the truck and hauls it to the woods wether one believes it or not is the trainer at that point and from that point on. What happens at the breeders kennel from the time thier 3 weeks old till they find new homes at 9 weeks is in the hands of the breeder at which at that time should be the one to start and do the training. I believe that between the ages of 3 weeks old till 5 months old wether the pup has it in him or not is the most crucial time for a pups overall outcome as they grow older. More than one might think. If one makes a misguided judgement at a young age.puts the fear of good in them,more times than not the pup won't fully recover from it mentally. Seen it many times! I'll explain more later,Danny G.

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Old Post 07-14-2015 11:29 AM
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recon
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Jul 2006
Location: SE TEXAS
Posts: 629

In my humble opinion, people take too much credit for "training" a coondog, when in actuality the dog became what he is not due to our "training", but rather in spite of it.

Not including the pre-hunting training such as socializing, leading, loading, coming, and limited exposure to the desired game, there is very little a "trainer" can do to make a coondog, other than take him to the woods. That is where a dogs genetics take over and they either have what it takes, or they don't. Usually when "trainers" get involved, they cause more harm than good.

The best thing we can do to make a coondog is train ourselves to learn to have patience while the dogs are training themselves. Impatience causes us to feel the need to "train", and that is usually where a good dog gets ruined.

I firmly believe that there would be more good dogs if most of us stopped trying to train them. There have been far more good dogs ruined due to training, than good dogs being the product of training.

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Last edited by recon on 07-14-2015 at 03:31 PM

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Old Post 07-14-2015 03:21 PM
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Danny Glista
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Aug 2006
Location: Berlin Center,Oh
Posts: 2424

?

Let's say you have a top young natural that trees coon ahead of older dogs or splits alot,but yet hunted mostly by hisself at 16 months old and he start's to run all kind of trash but yet still does a great job when on a coon. Trash being possum,fox,deer and dillars and starts to run either of them on any given nite and will run maybe 2 or 3 of the listed critters on the same nite then goes off and trees a coon at the end.Which one would you start breaking them off with and why.If the trainor has no roll or choice to make,who makes that choice. So answer the ? and why if you would. I would like to hear from one thinks on this. Certainly one wouldn't let the top young super star continue on this path! List them in the order on which you would start with from 1 thru 4!There's always going to be times when the trainer has a choice to make or not make wether it's a super good natural or not. For those who are thinking a natural always runs just a coon,never seen it in my life time! I've never owned one that didn't need corrected along the way that made a top hound.Top hounds more times than not have a great desire to hunt and pursue game. Most know it as being real gamey. When he goes south on something other than wanted game,someone has to make a choice right or wrong. Would that be the trainer? JMO!! We all have them! Danny G.

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Last edited by Danny Glista on 07-14-2015 at 04:27 PM

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Old Post 07-14-2015 04:19 PM
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Danny Glista
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Aug 2006
Location: Berlin Center,Oh
Posts: 2424

4play

I listed the 4 critters and if you had the problem,list them in the order you would breack them on from 1st to last just assuming you had it to do! Critters are possum,fox,deer and dillars!

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Old Post 07-14-2015 04:59 PM
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