Registered: Oct 2014
Location: Woods
Posts: 246

We always see the talk of line breeding and "tight bred" dogs. Which I find interesting and love reading about.

But, have you ever made an outcross that seemed like it just HAD to work? You know, a track driving dog to a radical tree dog. I'm guessing these arent as successful as in a high percentage of pups turn out as linebreeding, but it seems (from someone with no breeding experience) that you could get that one pup out of the liter who is a star. Anybody have any experience with this?

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Registered: May 2008
Location: lenoir nc
Posts: 307

Makes good since to me to breed for the traits you want instead of papers! I'm finding out that line breeding runs into alot of problems down the line with health and other problems.

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Registered: Oct 2014
Location: Woods
Posts: 246

Thanks for the reply. And that very well could be...but for the sake of this thread I would rather not turn it into a debate on linebreeding. I believe we have plenty to read through if we wanted to look at that

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Registered: Jun 2003
Location: Missouri
Posts: 4321

You might make a cross like you described and that one pup might have some "star" genetics. But wait, the guy who buys him doesn't hunt him, the dog is tied out on a chain until he's 2 years old, barking at every deer, turkey, coyote, squirrel and cow he sees. Someone gets him and turns him loose at night a few times and he looks like an idiot so he gets culled. The rest of the litter were culls anyway, so now the whole cross is a failure.

What seems like it should work, doesn't always turn out and other crosses do. Sometimes its hard to pick apart and point to 1 or 2 reasons why. My approach is to try some different things and whatever works the best is what I'll use, going forward.

Trying to produce litters of pups who all have the genetics to make slightly above average dogs doesn't sound very flashy. But that, and proper selection will get you further ahead in the long run. It will also make the journey towards a better dog, much more enjoyable. jmo.

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Registered: Jun 2003
Location: Central Michigan
Posts: 6544

The results of a total out cross producing a star is real. The thing is that outcrossed star rarely will produce its equal.

An outcross is a tool available to breeders to increase genetic variability. There is no doubt that outcrossing can be a valuable tool to breeders, but how the tool is used makes all the difference.

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Registered: Jun 2014
Location: Louisiana
Posts: 3464

What makes people think that a radical outcross will produce at least one superior individual? Oh sure. "My great grandpa had a half bird dog that was the best coon dog in the world". In those days everybody had the best dog in the world. Their world consisted of about 5 square miles. Why wouldn't you be as likely, or more likely, to get a super dog out of a proven cross?

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Registered: Mar 2013
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quote:

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Originally posted by NiteHeat
We always see the talk of line breeding and "tight bred" dogs. Which I find interesting and love reading about.

But, have you ever made an outcross that seemed like it just HAD to work? You know, a track driving dog to a radical tree dog. I'm guessing these arent as successful as in a high percentage of pups turn out as linebreeding, but it seems (from someone with no breeding experience) that you could get that one pup out of the liter who is a star. Anybody have any experience with this?

---

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Registered: Oct 2012
Location: burnt district MO/KS border
Posts: 787

quote:

---

Originally posted by Larry Atherton
The results of a total out cross producing a star is real. The thing is that outcrossed star rarely will produce its equal.

An outcross is a tool available to breeders to increase genetic variability. There is no doubt that outcrossing can be a valuable tool to breeders, but how the tool is used makes all the difference.

---

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Registered: Oct 2014
Location: Woods
Posts: 246

thanks blackflagginit
slightly off topic: I've heard you state before you hunt a female 9/10 times over a male. What are your reasons for that?

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Registered: Oct 2012
Location: burnt district MO/KS border
Posts: 787

just personal preference. When in the training phase, I seem to "get through" to females better (not that they cant be as hard headed as males sometimes )

its always been my experience that an "alpha" female hound (or collie or bird dog or ect) will except the lower role in our little "pack" better than alpha males will.

so most of the time when hunting males, the "power struggle" phase where we figure out who the boss is, is a lot longer.

also females are in heat once or twice a year, and you have to put them up for a cpl weeks. Males are in heat 365 days a year, from puberty to death.

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Registered: Sep 2007
Location: Western Pa
Posts: 3377

That's what I did and I got EXACTLY what I bred for... Smartest thing you can do with a legit female is improve her weaknesses. I didn't lose anything on the female end either.

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Registered: Jan 2006
Location: mississippi
Posts: 4655

Ive been hunting pretty much only females for the past 30 plus years. I kept two males during that period and they were for my own breeding purposes.
Females generally start quicker and like you said that male dominance thing is a headache to work out training wise.
Sometimes they never ever really get over it. I have heard of several major stud dogs that just got put up from hunting once they started getting bred. Bone collector is probably the exception to the rule there. That sucker gets bred 3 to 4 times a week and is in the final cast of every major hunt he enters.

those dogs are rare. extremely rare.

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Registered: Oct 2012
Location: burnt district MO/KS border
Posts: 787

one point I forgot to make, is that if you have a TOP female. I mean a barn burner/ katy-bar-the-door COONDOG, you will have your pick of any male in the entire breed to cross her on when it comes time to replace her. Heck you can cross her a half dozen times or more on different ones and then pick what worked out best.


Even with TOP males, you have to hope someone with one of those barn burner females decides to use your male. you might get lucky, really really lucky, and one or two do that before he dies. Having a truck load of those show up even in his entire life prob isn't going to happen. In any case, you are at the mercy of the female owners in the breed.

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It is well that war is so terrible, otherwise we should grow too fond of it.

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Registered: Dec 2012
Location: Pennsylvania
Posts: 2027

quote:

---

Originally posted by Larry Atherton
The results of a total out cross producing a star is real. The thing is that outcrossed star rarely will produce its equal.

An outcross is a tool available to breeders to increase genetic variability. There is no doubt that outcrossing can be a valuable tool to breeders, but how the tool is used makes all the difference.

---

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