Registered: Aug 2004
Location: Chattanooga, Tn
Posts: 22586

First off, I had to start my own thread because I did not want to be accused of "hijacking" anyone elses.
Is there a difference between a dog that "naturally" posseses the traits that we want but doesn't "show" them at a very early age and one that starts off "treeing his own coon" without any training before he/she is 12 mos old? I mean aren't we all looking for a dog that is born with a cold nose, big beautiful mouth, a desire to go hunting, the ability to work a track and the desire to hunt? I know that these are the "natural" traits that I am looking for. I also look for intelligence and the desire to please in a pup. It has to be bred in to them. You can't train that no matter how hard you try. You also can't train in a cold nose or a big loud mouth. They have to be born with them.
You can also breed "early starting" into them. But just how important is that? Should we put more emphasis on starting early or finishing into a better dog? Is there a correlation between starting early and finishing better? I mean does a pup have to start early in order to finish into a top hound? Ask any of the top walker dog people what the S/S did to their breed. Everyone all of a sudden wanted an early starting pup. Just ask them what happened. Their dogs were "burn't out" and had to be retired by the time that they were 3 yrs old.
Whatever happened to patience? I guess that early starting Redbones are just a sign of the times. I know that I have a lot of questions but I don't have the answers. Can anyone help me?

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Registered: Aug 2004
Location: Chattanooga, Tn
Posts: 22586

I also noticed on that "picking a stud" thread that a lot of people wanted one that finished out to be a "winner" and possesed all of the "natural traits" that they wanted but no one mentioned "early starting"?

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Registered: Oct 2014
Location: United States
Posts: 182

To me a natural pup is one that started early without much outside influence to do so. They just had it in them to run and tree from the beginning.

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Moonlight Call Girl (Gr.Nt.Ch. Moonlight Woody x Gr.Nt.Ch. Outlaw Billy Jean)

Moonlight Game Over (Gr.Nt.Ch. Outlaw G Man x Gr. Nt.Ch. Gold Ch. Laytons Classy Cali)

Outlaw Hank (Gr.Nt.Ch. Gr.Ch. Glisson's Outlaw Jesse James Jr x Gr.Nt.Ch. Outlaw Billy Jean)

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Registered: Oct 2012
Location: east ohio
Posts: 1277

I agree the age they naturally start will not change how one will finish at the end I had some very good walkers that didn't start till they was over 16 months old
But if one shows the maturity to naturally start at a early age under a year they probably would be mature enuff to handle some harder hunting but I shore wouldn't hunt them as hard as a 16 month old
The Ss did ruin some hounds back in the day no question I brought that up on another post but I feel most of it was from trying to train pups to be early starters before they was mature enuff and hunting the crap out of a immature pup and then hunting them with the same crap in the Ss the true naturals was the better ones jmo lol
I don't think many would be upset if one naturally started under a year old and finished out as a top end hound if that's what you want have to breed for it
I know thats what I want and have had in the past but I want it proven in the breeding not one of those 1990s man made Ss pups
And I'll take that one that starts at 14 to 16 months before I'll take that Ss pup also
Again jmo

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mark marshall

favorits ive hunted and or owned
grnt nighty nite moonlight kate rip
grnt moonlight pepper ann
Grnt jackpot Jackie rip
grnt rocky top jet
ntch moonlight katie rip
ntch moonlight madona
ntch beaver creek blaze rip
ntch moonlights dirty danny b.rip (ntch moonlight kink x ntch sawblade reckon)
Current
Grnt moonlight ky Kate (grnt ranger x grnt moonlight Kate
Ntch Pr beaver creeks easy peezy three 1st place wins (jet x moonlight Bree)
Pr beaver creeks moonlight coon buster ( moonlight shock x moonlight Bree)

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Registered: Aug 2011
Location: Northern Tier
Posts: 200

I asked the question of the definition of a natural on the other thread and got some real good answers. I think we all trained a bunch of dogs in our lives and I think we would all agree that there are very few naturals that start with all of the facets of being a top hound already shown the minute the dog starts. I have noticed some will tree naturally, some will track naturally, some will go hunting naturally, and some have a combination of a little of each. Few are born that have it all, naturally. I have had some of each that blew up, too. Not from hard hunting, but from a natural trait to blow up (imo). If I had my choice, I would take a hard hunting dog that trees if I couldn't have a naturally balanced hound. The rest can be developed (except big mouth, etc.). My best hound wasn't a complete natural but did have one trait, and that it was continuous, steady improvement. He didn't start until 15 months old but it's easy to hunt dogs like that when they keep getting better each night. I don't think I answered any of your questions Richard, but that's all I got.

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Home of the Red Solo Cup

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Registered: Jun 2003
Location: Pennsylvania
Posts: 1589

Here is a list of traits I like and if I can find a dog with all of them I would pick that bloodline to use over a dog that is lacking in one or more of these traits.
1.Goes hunting without encouragement
2.Open trailing, track driver
3.accurite stay put tree dog
4.early signs of Brains and natural instinct
5.high quality finished hound.

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Sawblade Kennels/owner Kelly Hyde

Proud Breeder of the following dogs
GrNiteCh Sawblade Fiddle "no.5 historical female
QuadGrCh Yellow River Red Blaze
GrNiteCh Copeland's Red Hot Clyde
GrNiteCh Stone's Midnight Red Jake
NiteCh Brights Choctaw Night Time Sissy
NiteCh Sawblade Red Reckon
NiteCh Brasee Red Penny
NiteCh Nacalus Mandolin
Yellow River Fiddle II " good reproducer"
NiteCh Krasa Sawblade Quikstuf Bone
GrNiteCh Krasa Hair Trigger Hope
GrNiteCH Locked and Loaded Jake
GrNiteCh Moonlight Woody
NiteCh Sawblade Mac Truck " Jake and Hopes' brother"
NiteCh After Dark Spark " brother to Fiddle"
NiteCh Morgan's Boone " sister to Fiddle"
NiteCh High Water June " out of Reckon"
NiteCh Sawblade Timberline Rusty
Sawblade Ribbon,


They are bred with heart and drive included.

From a small kennel with Big results.

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Registered: Jun 2010
Location: Marion, Indiana
Posts: 4280

quote:

---

Originally posted by Richard Lambert
First off, I had to start my own thread because I did not want to be accused of "hijacking" anyone elses.
Is there a difference between a dog that "naturally" posseses the traits that we want but doesn't "show" them at a very early age and one that starts off "treeing his own coon" without any training before he/she is 12 mos old? I mean aren't we all looking for a dog that is born with a cold nose, big beautiful mouth, a desire to go hunting, the ability to work a track and the desire to hunt? I know that these are the "natural" traits that I am looking for. I also look for intelligence and the desire to please in a pup. It has to be bred in to them. You can't train that no matter how hard you try. You also can't train in a cold nose or a big loud mouth. They have to be born with them.
You can also breed "early starting" into them. But just how important is that? Should we put more emphasis on starting early or finishing into a better dog? Is there a correlation between starting early and finishing better? I mean does a pup have to start early in order to finish into a top hound? Ask any of the top walker dog people what the S/S did to their breed. Everyone all of a sudden wanted an early starting pup. Just ask them what happened. Their dogs were "burn't out" and had to be retired by the time that they were 3 yrs old.
Whatever happened to patience? I guess that early starting Redbones are just a sign of the times. I know that I have a lot of questions but I don't have the answers. Can anyone help me?

---

Is that last sentence a trick question?

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Shane Maxey
Proud lifetime member of the NRA
Banshee Wildlife Products
Hoosier Outlaw / Moonlight Redbones
1994 American Redbone Coonhound Association Hunter of the Year
My first 3 redbones raised from pup's were:
Dual Gr.Ch. Outlaw Billy the Kid
Dual Gr.Ch.- PKC Ch. Outlaw Timber Girl
Dual Gr.Ch. Outlaw Scarlett Fever
(((( Current Favorites ))))
2013 AKC Ladies World Champion
Gr.Nt.Ch.- PKC Ch- AKC Ladies World Ch Ky Moonlight Breanna
Gr.Nt.Ch. - PKC Ch. Ky Moonlight Woody
Dual Grand Moonlight Deana
Dual Grand Ch.- PKC Ch. Moonlight AfterShock
Dual Grand Nighty Night Amber
Gr.Nt.Ch. Moonlight Big Time Britt
Gr.Nt.Ch Outlaw Billy Jean
Gr.Nt.Ch-PKC Ch.-2015 PKC Red Days Champ Outlaw Cherry Bomb
Gr.Nt.Ch Outlaw Breeze
Gr.Nt.Ch.Gr.Ch. All Grand Outlaw G-Man (over $20.000 won in PKC & CHKC) 2019 Southern Redbone Days Overall Champion
Gr.Nt.Ch. Moonlight Outlaw Mac
Gr.Nt.Ch. Classy Cali (Heavy Outlaw bred)
Gr.Nt.Ch. Moonlight Cat Scratch Fever
Gr.Nt.Ch. Moonlight Addiction
Gr.Nt.Ch. Moonlight Overdose
Gr.Nt.Ch. Moonlight Jinx
Gr.Nt.Ch. Moonlight Banshee
"Always outnumbered...Never outgunned!"
To enjoy lots of pics and videos of out redbones, find me on Facebook
as Shenandoah Maxey

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Registered: Nov 2011
Location: minden, la
Posts: 622

What is a finished Hound?

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Registered: Jun 2003
Location: Pennsylvania
Posts: 1589

Finished hound = coon treeing machine. no help needed and few if any mistakes doing the job.

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Sawblade Kennels/owner Kelly Hyde

Proud Breeder of the following dogs
GrNiteCh Sawblade Fiddle "no.5 historical female
QuadGrCh Yellow River Red Blaze
GrNiteCh Copeland's Red Hot Clyde
GrNiteCh Stone's Midnight Red Jake
NiteCh Brights Choctaw Night Time Sissy
NiteCh Sawblade Red Reckon
NiteCh Brasee Red Penny
NiteCh Nacalus Mandolin
Yellow River Fiddle II " good reproducer"
NiteCh Krasa Sawblade Quikstuf Bone
GrNiteCh Krasa Hair Trigger Hope
GrNiteCH Locked and Loaded Jake
GrNiteCh Moonlight Woody
NiteCh Sawblade Mac Truck " Jake and Hopes' brother"
NiteCh After Dark Spark " brother to Fiddle"
NiteCh Morgan's Boone " sister to Fiddle"
NiteCh High Water June " out of Reckon"
NiteCh Sawblade Timberline Rusty
Sawblade Ribbon,


They are bred with heart and drive included.

From a small kennel with Big results.

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Registered: Nov 2011
Location: minden, la
Posts: 622

Well, I guess I better get my light charged up. I got work to do!

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Registered: May 2007
Location: fairmont wv
Posts: 11976

im not in y'alls class im just a ole****ry boy that has pleasure hunted my whole life titles never influnced me if you breed coondog to coon dog most of the pups will make decent dogs then there may be 1-2 that turn out to be top quailty dog's i always looked at dogs abilty not what titles they have jmo

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Registered: Jun 2003
Location: Pennsylvania
Posts: 1589

No offence hillbilly56, but I didn't see anyone mention any titles in this post. Finished means they probably can win doesn't always mean they have or even have to as far as I'm concerned.

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Sawblade Kennels/owner Kelly Hyde

Proud Breeder of the following dogs
GrNiteCh Sawblade Fiddle "no.5 historical female
QuadGrCh Yellow River Red Blaze
GrNiteCh Copeland's Red Hot Clyde
GrNiteCh Stone's Midnight Red Jake
NiteCh Brights Choctaw Night Time Sissy
NiteCh Sawblade Red Reckon
NiteCh Brasee Red Penny
NiteCh Nacalus Mandolin
Yellow River Fiddle II " good reproducer"
NiteCh Krasa Sawblade Quikstuf Bone
GrNiteCh Krasa Hair Trigger Hope
GrNiteCH Locked and Loaded Jake
GrNiteCh Moonlight Woody
NiteCh Sawblade Mac Truck " Jake and Hopes' brother"
NiteCh After Dark Spark " brother to Fiddle"
NiteCh Morgan's Boone " sister to Fiddle"
NiteCh High Water June " out of Reckon"
NiteCh Sawblade Timberline Rusty
Sawblade Ribbon,


They are bred with heart and drive included.

From a small kennel with Big results.

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Registered: Aug 2004
Location: Chattanooga, Tn
Posts: 22586

Mr Scorpion, I had a pup once that was a complete "natural". He would run and tree by himself at 12 mos old. He started with no encouragement. At 13 mos old he just quit and that was it. I never could figure him out. I have been a little "suspicious" of these "natural" pups ever since.
Shane, no tricks. There is an awful lot about dog behavior that I am completely baffled by. Don't believe it if someone tells you that you can't teach an old dog new tricks. I am always open to new ideas.

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Registered: May 2007
Location: fairmont wv
Posts: 11976

i probly just didn't read the post right im just gettin old and senile these days lol i went back and reread the post i had 1 them naturals back in the 70s 6 months old started the 2nd nite he was in the woods he was bleaskley bred

Last edited by hillbilly56 on 03-03-2016 at 11:57 PM

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Registered: Mar 2010
Location: Pa
Posts: 1495

Finished dog to me is one that took its last breath , even my best dogs needed a boot in the ribs every now and then till the day they died.Sounds funny but I'm telling the God's honest truth.

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Registered: Aug 2004
Location: Chattanooga, Tn
Posts: 22586

quote:

---

Originally posted by Wade Kuhns
....Finished dog to me is one that took its last breath....

---

It don't get no better than that.

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Registered: Sep 2009
Location: Goshen, IN
Posts: 650

Walk with Wick Books are available at www.MarkZepp.com

They are autographed. This subject is covered in detail!!

Happy Hunting!

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Mark Zepp

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Registered: Mar 2009
Location: Iowa
Posts: 52

Correct answer!!!!

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Home of:
Gr Nt Ch PKC Ch Pr Cookie's Last Chance
PR Miss Molly

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Registered: Mar 2015
Location: Southern Vermont
Posts: 311

quote:

---

Originally posted by Wade Kuhns
Finished dog to me is one that took its last breath , even my best dogs needed a boot in the ribs every now and then till the day they died.Sounds funny but I'm telling the God's honest truth.

---

That sounds about rite that has been my experiance as well Im glad to know Im not alone lol
I thought It was only me

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Hounds I own
PR LT Redcoat Wait Till Sundown(Dual Grand T-Top Dark Timber Moose X Longtrail Redcoat Reaper)

PR Long Trail Redcoat Lucky Walter (Dual GR T-Top Dark Timber Moose xSML Dark Timber Bobbie Ann) co owner Ron Wolters


PR Long Trail Redcoat Reaper(GRCHPR Hershs Huntin Red 90/4 Life Gun HTX X CH PR Stone&Redcoat DBL Moon Kate II) co owner Ron Wolters

Hounds Im hunting
PR Soggy Bottom Dark Timber Addy : owners Buck Ratliff/Mike Laster

NTCH GRCH Dark Timber Red Angus : owners Buck Ratliff and Myself

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Registered: Mar 2010
Location: Pa
Posts: 1495

Do we want to get into dominate and recessive traits (genes)? Two rights make a wrong and two wrongs make a right,or should we just let that go?

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Registered: May 2005
Location: oklahoma
Posts: 5035

IS A EARLY STARTER BETTER THAN A LATE STARTER

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HOME OF 2010 HIGH SCOREING REDBONE FEMALE, DUAL CH Y2KD, #7 REPRODUCING RED FEMALE
NT.Ch. WINNER AT REDBONE SEC. 2008
3RD PL. NT.CH. 2009 BATTLE OF BREEDS AT ADA OKLA.
4TH PLACE R.Q.E 2010
2ND PLACE OVERALL AT ZONE 4 AND DOUBLE CAST WINNER 2010
WENT TO 2010 WORLD HUNT
AMERICAN REDBONE ASSOCIATION HIGH SCOREING REDBONE FEMALE OF THE 2010 WORLD HUNT
OVERALL HI SCOREING DOG AT 2010 BBCHA BLUE TIC SECTIONAL
GR.NT.CH. AT 12 and A HALF
MADE-EM SEE RED

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Registered: Oct 2012
Location: east ohio
Posts: 1277

Finished to me is a dog that has reached a point that its ability has pretty much peaked to the point that it's improvement gos almost unnoticed and correction of any bad traits to the point that I can live with them
That's were my part ends the dog gos else where
Imo the dog is finshed only improvement comes from years of hunting and reminders in correction for its bad traits and any bad habits it picks up the handlers job isn't finished till the dog is dead

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mark marshall

favorits ive hunted and or owned
grnt nighty nite moonlight kate rip
grnt moonlight pepper ann
Grnt jackpot Jackie rip
grnt rocky top jet
ntch moonlight katie rip
ntch moonlight madona
ntch beaver creek blaze rip
ntch moonlights dirty danny b.rip (ntch moonlight kink x ntch sawblade reckon)
Current
Grnt moonlight ky Kate (grnt ranger x grnt moonlight Kate
Ntch Pr beaver creeks easy peezy three 1st place wins (jet x moonlight Bree)
Pr beaver creeks moonlight coon buster ( moonlight shock x moonlight Bree)

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Registered: Aug 2004
Location: Chattanooga, Tn
Posts: 22586

quote:

---

Originally posted by oklared
IS A EARLY STARTER BETTER THAN A LATE STARTER

---

No dog that has won the "Baby Stakes" has gone on to be a top hound.

Mark, some nights I don't know if I am training Boone or Boone is training me.

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Registered: Aug 2004
Location: Chattanooga, Tn
Posts: 22586

From some of the responses that I have gotten it appears that some of y'all don't think that I think that you can breed for early starting pups. Some of y'all also think that I don't like early starting pups. To the contrary, I like and try to breed for early starters. That just isn't my top priority and sometimes you don't get them even when you try. Sometimes that natural talent is hiding deep inside of them and needs to be brought out. But just in case you don't think that sometimes it happens.....
Sally treed her first coon at 10 mos old and was my pup trainer from 11 mos on...

I don't have any pictures of Willow....

Wendy at 14 mos old.....

Wilma at 7 mos old.....

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Registered: Aug 2004
Location: Chattanooga, Tn
Posts: 22586

I don't know if Wilma's pups will be early starters or not yet. I will just love it if they are but it won't break my heart if they aren't. I will just coax them along and wait for that natural talent that I know is bred into them to pop out. I have heard people say that "their switch just flipped one night".

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