Registered: Dec 2007
Location: Kalamazoo
Posts: 132

WOW there is so much misinformation, confusion, and misstatements floating around here I am not even sure where to begin to respond to all of this. I haven't responded earlier because I am on the road for UKC at a bird HUNTING trial in Alabama, and my availibility is limited, so I will try to cover this all in one shot here.

I'll begin by stating UKC always has and always will fight for hunter rights, and never want to see that infringed upon. To think otherwise is just silly--why would we shoot ourselves in the foot? I'd also like to point out--when do you see any of the other registries getting involved in hunting issues? I have been directly involved in the wolf issue in Michigan, and to whomever mentioned California, while we may not have been able to personally show up in Sacramento for the bear and cat hunting issue, we did work directly with USSA on getting mailers out so that YOU ALL had the information you needed to make your voices be heard. Because, really, that is the bottom line here. No matter what position the big organizations take, it's the voice of the people that matters most.

The EXISTING CURRENT LAW in Kentucky already states:

525.125 Cruelty to animals in the first degree.
(1) The following persons are guilty of cruelty to animals in the first degree
whenever a four-legged animal is caused to fight for pleasure or profit:
(a) The owner of the animal;
(b) The owner of the property on which the fight is conducted if the owner
knows of the fight;
(c) Anyone who participates in the organization of the fight.
(2) Activities of animals engaged in hunting, field trials, dog training, and other
activities authorized either by a hunting license or by the Department of Fish
and Wildlife shall not constitute a violation of this section.
(3) Cruelty to animals in the first degree is a Class D felony.


The proposed bill would add the following wording to expand the class of animal fighters who can be charged:

"Any person who knowingly owns, possesses, keeps, breeds, trains, sells, or otherwise transfers a four-legged animal for the purpose of that animal or its offspring being used to fight for pleasure or profit is guilty of cruelty to animals in the first degree."

So you can see that hunters are already currently exempted and that will not change with the proposed bill, as I have previously stated. Ths exemption for hunters has existed for 20+ years and has worked to protect hunters all that time--nothing changes that now. When I evaluate a potential law, I read it as plainly written. I have nothing here that demonstrates to me that there is any intent to go after hunting or anything outside of animal fighting. Most states, including Michigan and federal law, have worded it "animal" in order to encompass ALL animal fighting and not just dog fighting, so I see nothing unreasonable with that wording either. I would support removing "four legged" so it includes cock fighting as well. I am not going to oppose a law simply on the basis that HSUS supports it, that is not sound legal reasoning, and I would not be doing my job properly if I did. There are occasional general issues that UKC and HSUS will agree on, such as opposing animal cruelty and fighting. I will oppose bills that infringe on hunter and dog breeder rights, and support laws that are worded correctly to stop actual animal cruelty, neglect, and fighting.

Now, to address the personal attacks made on me. I'm not sure where anyone is getting information that I am working with HSUS. Couldn't be further from the truth and is in fact laughable. Not only am a proud owner of purpose-bred purebred dogs, I am a hunter. I upland and waterfowl hunt, and have titled bird dogs. Pretty sure HSUS would not be all right with that. I am on the board for the Michigan Hunting Dog Federation. I am Secretary for my Michigan North American Versatile Hunting Dog Association chapter. In addition, I am a member of the Animal Law section for both the American Bar Association and the Michigan State Bar to represent dog breeder and hunter rights in two forums where the deck is most certainly stacked against me and I fight the animal rights lawyers constantly. However, I also have roots going back to college dealing with breed discrimination and "pit bull" issues, and feel VERY strongly about those, as does UKC as a whole. UKC is an all-breed registry that was founded on the American Pit Bull Terrier, so we have a great duty to protect that breed. While we might disagree on this particular law, I am the furthest thing from an animal rights activist and am disappointedd that any UKC dog owner would actually think so. I don't like to toot my own horn, but you will be hard pressed to find another lawyer as well versed in dog law issues who hunts and is as on your side as I am.

One part y'all did get right? Yes I did take the bar in Kentucky. Way before I was lucky to get my position with UKC and represent dog owners well over 7 years ago, I had planned to move to Kentucky to practice equine law and be involved in the racing industry, something else that HSUS and Peta would hate! For personal reasons, that didn't work out, and I took the bar in Michigan and landed at UKC. I have been inactive with the Kentucky bar since then so I am not actually licensed there any more. It always has and always will be one of my very favorite states in the country, but no I am not "doing" any politicians in Kentucky. Oh and in case you think I'm some city slicker, wrong again. Born in West Virginia and grew up in the coal country of very eastern Ohio.

I hope you will all actually read this and understand where we are coming from, and understand what this law actually says and does, and even if you disagree, at least have an intelligent discussion instead of all this name calling and slanderous rumor mongering. Now I've got to get back to this frigid frozen bird dog trial in Alabama.

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Sara Chisnell

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If you all want to post your questions here I came into the office for a few hours and will do my best to respond. I will also be editing all other comments on threads that are pointed at Sara in a slanderous fashion.

You all have no idea how much she has done for you all personally as dog owners and hunters. Every day. Every State! It doesn't even get recognized. Hardly any of us even get involved in legislative issues. Then something like this blows up and it's out of control. The tethering bill in Maryland is more controversial to your rights as houndsmen and nobody is even discussing it.

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All these little pieces of legislation squeezed through with the support of the "antis" are so easily perverted through misinterpretation that we hound hunters are understandably defensive.
A hog and a coon are both 4 legged animals, how long before a case is made by PETA. or the HSUS. citing this legislation as justification for cruelty charges against a sportsman transporting his dog, just seems like the natural progression to me.
Not realizing that being on the same side of the fence with these groups on this issue would make houndsmen see red was shortsighted.

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Last edited by john Duemmer on 02-21-2015 at 06:27 PM

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Sara there is no doubt where you all are coming from. Stopping dog fighting is honorable. There are laws in every State against dog fighting. I don't know a single houndsman that is for dog fights.


Yes I have Actually Read it deciphered it and then Re Read it again and as a houndsmen and country guy I am not that Incompetent that I can not understand what I have read.

I don't know if Mich. Ky. W. Virginia or Eastern Ohio where you grew up raised sheep but here in Iowa we have sheep farms. The farmers protect those sheep with a dog and I can't remember the breed ( must be my old age) They look like a sheep but stand about a foot taller then the sheep. These dogs live in the farmers house and are as friendly as you can get. But put them in a pasture with a flock and they come protectors. This isn't trained this is the way they are bred. Under the writing in this New Bill these breeders and farmers could be charged as a felon plain and simple.
The concept of this new Bill is good the way it is written is Bad Bad BAD News for Hound Hunters and Farmers.

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Sara glad to see you all respond . Answer one more question their reason for not changing the wording is because of hog dogs. Their intent to stand on not changing goes deeper than you or I can imagine! Everyone on this board understands dog fighting is not exceptable nor supports it. Also understands where UKC should stand with it. But there are other avenues that could be taken in order for UKC to stand with them. Such as wording we see things more plainly than you and your degrees in law. Make it dog on dog! Game cock on game cock. No gray areas there is no need in them if their concern is just that ! Doesn't seem such a big deal when they reword to that. But they won't because of a hidden agenda!! This truly isn't over UKC taking a stand on dog fighting ! It's about getting it reworded so people feel your truly getting our backs as hunters! Your (UKC) goal should be to cover every angle for all groups involved with UKC. But I just don't think you have made sure all doors are being guarded. No intent to down you or belittle your name and hope most on here would not lower them selfs to a personal level of that. As far as PKC not fighting sometimes it's not the fight it's the stand you take!! As they have stated reword it !!!!

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Mike McKinney

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What if a dog fights breaks out in a UKC cast we all don't like it but it happens both dogs are scratched and it is filed in UKC records can the hsus not come into the office and pull these record and both party's be charged with a felony plus can the land owner because he let the cast hunt on his property may sound like a dumb question but one I was wondering about

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Registered: Oct 2013
Location: WV
Posts: 209

The PKC stood up and said no to this bill. They care about the dogs too. Why couldn't you guys say no too ? You guys just added more fuel to the fire for these tree hungers that always want to take away something.

I had to post this here too.

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UKC does care about dogs - all dogs - from Coonhounds to Labradors to Jack Russell Terriers to American Pit Bull Terriers, we do indeed care about dogs. While hunting dogs are a big part of our registry, United Kennel Club is an all-breed registry and needs to be concerned on many different levels of legislation – breed specific legislation, anti-hunting, tethering bills, to name a few. We will continue to fight for your right to own and hunt with dogs.

Tanya Raab
President, UKC

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Registered: Jun 2003
Location: Kalamazoo, Mich.
Posts: 6113

quote:

---

Originally posted by rough country
What if a dog fights breaks out in a UKC cast we all don't like it but it happens both dogs are scratched and it is filed in UKC records can the hsus not come into the office and pull these record and both party's be charged with a felony plus can the land owner because he let the cast hunt on his property may sound like a dumb question but one I was wondering about

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If we're not suppose to eat animals, then why are they made out of meat?

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Registered: Oct 2004
Location: Paragon IN
Posts: 1100

quote:

---

Originally posted by berger
Sara there is no doubt where you all are coming from. Stopping dog fighting is honorable. There are laws in every State against dog fighting. I don't know a single houndsman that is for dog fights.


Yes I have Actually Read it deciphered it and then Re Read it again and as a houndsmen and country guy I am not that Incompetent that I can not understand what I have read.

I don't know if Mich. Ky. W. Virginia or Eastern Ohio where you grew up raised sheep but here in Iowa we have sheep farms. The farmers protect those sheep with a dog and I can't remember the breed ( must be my old age) They look like a sheep but stand about a foot taller then the sheep. These dogs live in the farmers house and are as friendly as you can get. But put them in a pasture with a flock and they come protectors. This isn't trained this is the way they are bred. Under the writing in this New Bill these breeders and farmers could be charged as a felon plain and simple.
The concept of this new Bill is good the way it is written is Bad Bad BAD News for Hound Hunters and Farmers.

---

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Registered: Jun 2003
Location: Kalamazoo, Mich.
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quote:

---

Originally posted by berger

I don't know if Mich. Ky. W. Virginia or Eastern Ohio where you grew up raised sheep but here in Iowa we have sheep farms. The farmers protect those sheep with a dog and I can't remember the breed ( must be my old age) They look like a sheep but stand about a foot taller then the sheep. These dogs live in the farmers house and are as friendly as you can get. But put them in a pasture with a flock and they come protectors. This isn't trained this is the way they are bred. Under the writing in this New Bill these breeders and farmers could be charged as a felon plain and simple.
The concept of this new Bill is good the way it is written is Bad Bad BAD News for Hound Hunters and Farmers.

---

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Registered: Mar 2013
Location: Rover,Arkansas
Posts: 1133

Sara , you posted above the current law which in a nutshell says anyone involved in fighting dogs is guilty of a felony and dogs for hunting are exempt from this. Done deal . For ukc to have ANY type of association with the enemy is a huge mistake. Until ukc publicly distances their self from the enemy I will publicly distance myself from ukc .

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Registered: May 2008
Location: Kentucky
Posts: 3147

Would this be an example....

Dog A and B Treed. Dog A gets rowdy,dog B gets rowdy. Owner of dog A says dog B can't move his,dog B says no dog A can't handle me. We have now just went from hunting to placing them in a fight situation. And,we have all heard fellows say this. So,then it goes from a licensed nite hunt to a licensed nite fight. Sounds far fetched but I bet a Perry Mason could argue it and get a bleeding heart jury and you are guilty.

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Registered: May 2008
Location: Kentucky
Posts: 3147

Heck,if I was gonna fight one that's what I would do. Go to a sanctioned hunt and see how many mine could whip. You could take bets on whether any dog could stay or whether you would be caught and scratched or not. I honestly think a nite hunt could save the dog fights. You would just have to fight hounds. Think about it,registered dog,at a licensed event,acting under hunting conditions. I am safe all the way around.

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Registered: Dec 2014
Location: Ky
Posts: 178

quote:

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Originally posted by Todd K / UKC
A stock dog biting a cow to load it on a trailer or a herd guardian protecting a herd is not putting two animals together to cause them to fight.

I haven't really heard a good example yet of what might actually be a good example of something that could be misconstrued?

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Registered: May 2008
Location: Kentucky
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Or if you got lucky and drew another dog there for the same reason then the live action would really get exciting. You could have one fight after another,have them light broke so they become angels and have another round until the weakest leaves a tree. That would be the loser.

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Registered: Sep 2013
Location: Waldron, Arkansas
Posts: 1333

What about squalling a coon out, and our dogs fighting and killing the coon? And the dogs getting a little bloody too? Is that disreguarded according to the bill?

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If a dog catches a coon on the ground, and you sell the hide . would that be considered profit.

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Now,if those scenarios happened do you think HSUS would be strongly against hound hunting and nite hunts. They will prob never happen,but they could. We don't want to be involved with HSUS. It's a bad stand.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Todd K / UKC
No. Because that is not putting two animals together to cause them to fight.

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quote:

---

Originally posted by Todd K / UKC
A stock dog biting a cow to load it on a trailer or a herd guardian protecting a herd is not putting two animals together to cause them to fight.

I haven't really heard a good example yet of what might actually be a good example of something that could be misconstrued?

---

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Last edited by chaz2012 on 02-21-2015 at 07:15 PM

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quote:

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Originally posted by rough country
Todd by no means am I trying to be rude but when you cast 4 male dogs together and 2 of them are mean or I'll and the 2 owners know they are mean then you are putting 2 animals together to cause them to fight not trying to twist the words but in a real live situation this could be a felony charge

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Registered: Oct 2004
Location: Clarksville, AR
Posts: 1077

Hog hunting anyone?

That's pretty well "four legged animal" vs "four legged animal"...


I think the point opponents of this billare trying to make is that it's less about how it's written, than how it may be interpreted, and how it may embolden enemies of our sport and way of life.

Why not just stay neutral for Christ's sake?!? Why in the world would a for-profit entity choose to alienate such a large portion of it's customer base? The fact that it has to be addressed by everyone from the President of the Kennel Club down indicates that it's wildly unpopular.

It just feels like another case of "Shut up, morons, We know what's best for you..." instead of "We represent you, and you have spoken".

I get plenty of what's best for me from the government...

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quote:

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Originally posted by Dan Dogs
If a dog catches a coon on the ground, and you sell the hide . would that be considered profit.

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Registered: Sep 2013
Location: Waldron, Arkansas
Posts: 1333

quote:

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Originally posted by chaz2012
Here you go Todd some guy gets caught fighting a walker or a redbone or a poodle , Now every one that raises them for profit can be found guilty, also better get ready to stop posting dogs scratched for fighting in the worthless bloodlines magazine

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