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I think Trash Breaking is a very valid question and it is discussed on here with a variety of answers. I think we should consider taking it one step further every time you attempt to break a dog from off game.

The key is not breaking the dog from running deer, treeing possums or chasing skunks. The KEY is breaking the dog without effecting its ability to run and tree coon. I don't have the answers for others to follow but I watch reactions to my dog training very closely for any adverse effects it has on the dogs ability to perform.

Some examples are. You don't want a dog to be so afraid of a deer that when he smells one it quits hunting and starts looking for you or the truck. You don't want your dog so afraid of a possum that it can't perform if another dog in the cast trees one.

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Registered: Jan 2013
Location: Marietta
Posts: 10790

I have made alot of mistakes training dogs I came from the time when the the only option you had was to run them down and correct them then we got training devices that made it easyer but the most valuable thing I learned was to start off with light correction at first and gradually turn up the heat because some dogs don't take as much correction as others I have had some that a little shake and a rough voice was all it took they are all individuals

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Registered: Jan 2007
Location: monroeville OH
Posts: 2685

some what time consuming! easy and slow! don't try to break a young dog in one nite. you will have just as bigger problem than what you started with. jmo

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Registered: Jan 2004
Location: North MO
Posts: 2353

I have not treed a possum in over a decade, I dont know if its genetic, or luck.

As far as anything fast.....I really dont want them to completely quit running it, but I do want them to fall off at the first good coon track. I have found that the more coons a dog sees the less he/she is likely to go past a coon track. Its aggravating when starting young dogs, but I like the end result. So my trash breaking method is simple......I just dont do it

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Registered: Jan 2013
Location: Chelsea Oklahoma
Posts: 280

I'm gonna go ahead and reply to this but I might have some think I'm crazy. I've been hunting a young English dog that I like some things about him well enough to put some time in him. He's tri color and good looking. He's got an old time roaring big mouth and a big ol locate. Been hunting him with my buddies walker that trees real hard and kind of backs this pup off the tree so I think he needs some confidence. The other night he treed a coon first but quit when my buddies dog came in there. He's just a tad on the soft side, not bad but a little. Last night I took him and I figured it was a possum because track was short and he was treeing good. He's a pleasure to listen to, I let him tree just a bit and went to him and knocked that possum out to him. In a little bit he treed another one and did talk about it. Let him have it to. He was a happy boy, just a different dog. When he has a few coons on him he'll quit them possums, they just like coon better. But I want him happy and confident at the tree then we'll work on off game. At least he's treeing trees with game in them and thats a plus. I think he'll make one

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Registered: Jan 2004
Location: North MO
Posts: 2353

quote:

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Originally posted by squirrelhunter7
I might have some think I'm crazy.

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Registered: Jan 2013
Location: Chelsea Oklahoma
Posts: 280

quote:

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Originally posted by Josh Michaelis
Yep......

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Registered: Apr 2005
Location: Barnesville, Ga.
Posts: 409

quote:

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Originally posted by Josh Michaelis
Yep......

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If It Climbs, It Ain't Trash

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Registered: Oct 2013
Location: Maryland
Posts: 2633

I think it is a big mistake to set the collar on its highest setting and roll the dog on the ground. From my experience it appears you get more out of ramping up the power until they stop. I believe that when you roll a dog on high he loses his thought of what he was doing in the first place and doesn't realize what just happened. Yes, he stopped but did he learn anything??? Not from what I see, not until you do this many, many times. If you start light with just a nick and go up from there you might get four or five good "hits" on one chase before the dog stops. This to me has the value of four or five different off game chases but only using up one worth of your time.
Avoiding mistakes in regards to pushing that button is important too. I have seen dogs get shocked because the other dog came back. It was believed by the owner that the dog that came back was a "check" dog. In fact he was a dog that simply refused to honor another dog on track. He was jealous and if he didn't get first strike he would not stay on the track. A lot of guys like and breed for this, but it don't help breaking other dogs much.
Bruce, i would a whole lot rather have a dog come back to me and stop hunting than have to listen to a time wasting 2 hour plus deer chase...some dogs don't give you any choice but to get them to this point. The good thing is that usually they wont stay this way, once they learn that off game wont hurt them if they just leave it alone they go on and hunt and get over it.
The biggest kick in the tail is that generally the dogs that run off the worst also have the drive to make the best coondogs.

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Registered: Jan 2013
Location: Chelsea Oklahoma
Posts: 280

quote:

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Originally posted by msinc
I think it is a big mistake to set the collar on its highest setting and roll the dog on the ground. From my experience it appears you get more out of ramping up the power until they stop. I believe that when you roll a dog on high he loses his thought of what he was doing in the first place and doesn't realize what just happened. Yes, he stopped but did he learn anything??? Not from what I see, not until you do this many, many times. If you start light with just a nick and go up from there you might get four or five good "hits" on one chase before the dog stops. This to me has the value of four or five different off game chases but only using up one worth of your time.
Avoiding mistakes in regards to pushing that button is important too. I have seen dogs get shocked because the other dog came back. It was believed by the owner that the dog that came back was a "check" dog. In fact he was a dog that simply refused to honor another dog on track. He was jealous and if he didn't get first strike he would not stay on the track. A lot of guys like and breed for this, but it don't help breaking other dogs much.
Bruce, i would a whole lot rather have a dog come back to me and stop hunting than have to listen to a time wasting 2 hour plus deer chase...some dogs don't give you any choice but to get them to this point. The good thing is that usually they wont stay this way, once they learn that off game wont hurt them if they just leave it alone they go on and hunt and get over it.
The biggest kick in the tail is that generally the dogs that run off the worst also have the drive to make the best coondogs.

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Last edited by squirrelhunter7 on 01-19-2015 at 02:09 PM

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Registered: Sep 2014
Location: Moline Illinois
Posts: 407

I think most dogs learn to run trash FROM OTHER DOGS that run trash. I know some dogs have some trashy blood too.
I have never had a dog that would run fast game- just an occasional young dog that would tree an easy opossum every now and then. Its pretty easy to break them of that- and I rarely use a shock collar. Just a stern no and yank them off the tree and they usually are smart enough to know its not what they are supposed to do. But with a hard- headed dog, it works best to shock them enough to let them know oppossums aren't fun to tree(as soon as you see its a opossum and just walk away from the tree) and the dog will leave and start hunting again

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Registered: Oct 2013
Location: Maryland
Posts: 2633

I have never owned a dog that didn't run off game of some kind at some point and had to be broke. All of the dogs I have owned and started myself, since 1977 ran off game when they first started out. In fact, just about all of them first opened on a deer. Deer are just so big and there are so many of them and so much scent and it smells so exciting to a puppy they cant help it, they have to go.
In my lifetime {53 years} I have known one {1} a single hound that was naturally straight. He was a Walker out of Beaver Lake Magic back in the early 80's and he never ran anything I ever knew of but a coon. He never really made anything other than a pleasure dog either. He was put in a few hunts but never placed.
I don't know where all these guys get all these dogs that never run "fast game" but I wish I did. I could also stand a few of them I keep hearing about that "break their self" too. Many of the ones I had could not be broke, and it wasn't for lack of trying...everything!!
I have to wonder if some of the guys I hunt with know what running off game is...I went with a local guy one night about a month ago. His dog hits a track, takes it to a laurel thicket...300 yards in about 25 seconds and trees up a pine tree not 10 feet tall. Completely slick and the man says, "well he jumped out!!! Joe never could follow one once he got up in those laurels and ran."
Then the next track the dog takes to high ground again, only to tree in a little sumac tree about 12 feet tall. Plainly slick on the edge of a field. Kind of by itself and the guy tells me, "Yep this time of year those sumacs are pollenating, Old Joe cant smell nothing around them."
Next track the dog starts doing circles in a big marsh..."big ole' boar coon" he says....When I asked if he ever trees a coon and has the meat I swear to god the guy said, "No, he always seems to pick the bad, hard to run tracks!!"

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Registered: Jan 2005
Location: Michigan
Posts: 272

I'm not trying to be a smarta>>, but your breaking subject is like a well. It's a very deep subject. I feel dogs are very much like humans when it comes to breaking them. Brains are where I like to start with a dog. Some dogs never need much, just a light touch with the TT and they are done. Then there are those that are like life time prisoners, never can break them. I will never say that what works for one trainer will work for some body else. Each dog is an individual. There is no way to have a blanket policy for trash breaking.

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Registered: Mar 2008
Location: Western N.Y.
Posts: 3995

Its been some years since iv had one that liked fast game, but i always found it best to nip it in the bud before it becomes a habit. People need to learn that there is a dial on that controller for a reason, just nic em about every 10 seconds until they quit is much more effective than melting their toenails.

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