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UKC Forums : Powered by vBulletin version 2.3.0 UKC Forums > Departments > UKC Coonhounds > poll on crossbreeds
is crossbreeding wrong
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yes 242 36.72%
no 417 63.28%
Total: 659 votes 100%
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bigtimekennels
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Sep 2004
Location: mulberry grove,il
Posts: 60

poll on crossbreeds

click yes if you think crossbreeding is wrong

click no if you dont think crossbreeding is wrong

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Old Post 10-08-2004 03:18 AM
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skyblu
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Jul 2003
Location: Texas
Posts: 4324

Why post this redundant question on this board?

Why bother producing MUTTS? UKC supplies excellent pedigrees that are FULL of info about the ancestors of each breed - do your homework & don't mix the breeds unless you don't care about the NEXT generation of MUTTS that will end up being dumped in shelters, dog pounds and at the side of the road.

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Old Post 10-08-2004 04:25 AM
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JiM
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I take it you voted "yes"???

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Old Post 10-08-2004 04:35 AM
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wayne f
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Registered: Aug 2004
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Posts: 2589

my thoughts

if your raising it to eat hybridize it
i don,think very many americans eat dogs

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Old Post 10-08-2004 04:41 AM
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JOE H BROOKS
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Jun 2003
Location: Hillsboro,ohio
Posts: 936

Poll on Cross Breeds

Shetler's Sonny Boy, the sire of Finley River Chief, Johnson's Banjo, just a couple of hounds that go back to cross bred mutts, as some narrow minded people, would say. Lester Nance's White River King, goes back to a black&tan female and others. Single registered hounds, or dogs that go back to them, Carolinia Casey, acha world hunt winner 68, 69 and placed in 4 of the world hunts, his mother was, single registered. Katy's Rowdy, another acha world hunt winner, went back to Mountain Music Blue and Blaze. There's a whole lot of big name dogs, that go back to cross bred hounds, why that lady in Texas, might have some in her kennel and don't know it. If everybody on this board was hunting a world class, coon hound, then there wouldn't be any need to improve their stock, would there ? And to hear some of them talk, you'd think, that they already had it all, till you go hunt, with them. Well you can't tell some people anything, cause they already know it all, but for the rest of us, we're still learning, still trying.

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Old Post 10-08-2004 06:13 AM
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Rosie
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Jan 2004
Location:
Posts: 79

I think crossing breeding between the coonhound breeds themselves would be optimal, but I hope they dont throw other items in there. Both hounds should be PR bred hounds within UKC in order for them to be crossed.
Has worked wonders for some of the cattle breeds. (ie Brangus, Beefmaster, Brafords, etc).

JMO

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Old Post 10-08-2004 06:34 AM
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Blue Reb
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Registered: Jan 2004
Location: Nebraska/Kansas
Posts: 507

Joe!

How could ya miss Speck? Wasn't he GR NITE Walker before he went on to win the world as an English? I believe there was an earlier post on this and I still have mixed emotions on it. It has worked for food in cattle and hogs but would I condone it in hounds? Some great things have already came from it but can't say I'd want to open register my dogs. Granted, I've never owned as great a dog as Hayes Hardtime Speck (single, open registered) or alot of the crossbred hounds that have made made certain breeds great, and probably never will own such a hound. I personally don't condone crossbreeding of coonhounds and open registry but I have no problem with 50% cattle. Does that make me a hypocrit, narrow minded, or does UKC need to change it's system for open registry? Say what you want about me, just food for thought, lol.

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Old Post 10-08-2004 07:47 AM
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Bear
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Jun 2003
Location:
Posts: 4312

Re: Why post this redundant question on this board?

quote:
Originally posted by skyblu
Why bother producing MUTTS? UKC supplies excellent pedigrees that are FULL of info about the ancestors of each breed - do your homework & don't mix the breeds unless you don't care about the NEXT generation of MUTTS that will end up being dumped in shelters, dog pounds and at the side of the road.


Skyblu,where do I start?First 5 0f the 6 breed asos. and UKC allows crossbreeds.You ever heard of single registration?Second,crossbreeding not only works for the big game hunter,it works for coon dogs too.Even if you dont agree with people that cross breed a lesson can be learned from their breeding practices.Dont breed for the titles,breed the best to the best.
Third, in this post and the other on this subject several of the great older dogs of a few of the breeds have been mentioned,they were not what you call full blooded.Are you so narrow minded that you dont think any pure breed cant be improved on?
I will agree with your statement do your homework before you breed.But the problem with that is to most the homework is find the dog with the most titles and titled dogs behind it and breed.With that reasoning it comes down to MONEY not producing a good dog.
Take a look at the picture below and tell me what breeding this dog is.Hes 18 months old and will put it on a lot of you so called titled pure bred dogs.And as you can see meets the walker standard right well.

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Old Post 10-08-2004 12:49 PM
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gal
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Aug 2003
Location: Virginia
Posts: 1465

arent their also other

dogs that r not coonhounds that r cross bred....cockapoo....labradoddles.......anythin ppl can cross to make a $$ or two.....noones gettin ontop them n ragin a rucus b/c they r over breedin either...why just pick on the coonhounds?

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Old Post 10-08-2004 01:50 PM
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pee dee
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Jun 2003
Location:
Posts: 136

trainers is what needs crossing

There are very good bred dogs in each breed , crossing of the breeds is not needed , maybe crossing the trainers is needed. What is the need of crossing breeds when the pups go to the same trainers.The main thing needed to produce better dogs is , dedicating the time that is needed to bring out the bred in potential,the ability is bred into them it is up to us to bring it to the surface. I know that I do not have the time that I used to spend with my dogs this is my fault not the dogs.Put the blame on two legs not four!

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Old Post 10-08-2004 02:04 PM
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justin tumbleso
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Dec 2003
Location: cincinnati, ohio
Posts: 745

Maybe a little English Blue in the wood pile. Whatever the breeding it is it looks like its working so keep on. I hunt walker dogs but the best dog I have ever been to the woods with was a cross. Just my opinion. Good hunting
Justin

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Old Post 10-08-2004 02:26 PM
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Bear
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Registered: Jun 2003
Location:
Posts: 4312

quote:
Originally posted by justin tumbleso
Maybe a little English Blue in the wood pile. Whatever the breeding it is it looks like its working so keep on. I hunt walker dogs but the best dog I have ever been to the woods with was a cross. Just my opinion. Good hunting
Justin



Nope Justin no English.Hes 1/2 walker 1/4 black & tan and 1/4 trigg hound.

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Old Post 10-08-2004 03:10 PM
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wkfii
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Registered: Aug 2003
Location: Independence, Kentucky
Posts: 1348

Re: Poll on Cross Breeds

quote:
Originally posted by JOE H BROOKS
Shetler's Sonny Boy, the sire of Finley River Chief, Johnson's Banjo, just a couple of hounds that go back to cross bred mutts, as some narrow minded people, would say. Lester Nance's White River King, goes back to a black&tan female and others. Single registered hounds, or dogs that go back to them, Carolinia Casey, acha world hunt winner 68, 69 and placed in 4 of the world hunts, his mother was, single registered. Katy's Rowdy, another acha world hunt winner, went back to Mountain Music Blue and Blaze. There's a whole lot of big name dogs, that go back to cross bred hounds, why that lady in Texas, might have some in her kennel and don't know it. If everybody on this board was hunting a world class, coon hound, then there wouldn't be any need to improve their stock, would there ? And to hear some of them talk, you'd think, that they already had it all, till you go hunt, with them. Well you can't tell some people anything, cause they already know it all, but for the rest of us, we're still learning, still trying.


I have a hound that has Carolina Casey in his pedigree. His sire his Red Eagle Casey II. I need only look into his face to agree with your contention. Top notch hound. I used to be unequivically against crossing between the so called breeds. Since then I have done a fair amount of research into hound history, both recent and ancient. My conclusion is that there is no absolute answer to the question as to whether you should cross breed or not. You have to balance between having a registry and everything that it gives you and excellance in the field. Our hounds and their genetic makeup is a living and breathing thing. When the Celts migrated off the Euasian steps with their ponderous mastiff type scent hounds they conquered western Europe. In that position they began trading with the Phoenicians. The sight hounds that they obtained from the Phoenicians were crossed into their scent hounds. The process probably began before that time and it has continued since that time- about 2,000 years ago. For all practical purposes we are dividing our hounds by their coat colors. I think the the UKC's or the breed associations' policy on single registration is about right in that it tries to strike that balance between having a registry and allowing for some breeding outside of the box so to speak.

What burns my ass though, is people being less than truthful about parentage on the papers. If you have a hound, say an English that has been crossed with a Walker, admit that the sire is a Walker and single register the pups. Let the paper reflect what you have. If the pups hunt well, that is the greatest test as to whether the cross was good.

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Old Post 10-08-2004 03:13 PM
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Bear
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Registered: Jun 2003
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WKFII,well stated Bill!

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Old Post 10-08-2004 03:19 PM
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walkers4ever
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Registered: May 2004
Location: Wisconsin
Posts: 4

to me all u get is alligators out of it and sure u can get some good ones but think about how tight that all gets for like bear dogs they do it to and they can get some real alligators breeding for more bite

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Old Post 10-08-2004 03:31 PM
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Bear
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quote:
Originally posted by walkers4ever
to me all u get is alligators out of it and sure u can get some good ones but think about how tight that all gets for like bear dogs they do it to and they can get some real alligators breeding for more bite


Bull S#$t,you will get gators from so called pure stock just as quick or quicker.In over twenty years of bear huntin and coon huntin Ive seen more papered gators than crossed up dogs.

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Old Post 10-08-2004 05:50 PM
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wildbill
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Registered: Jun 2003
Location: cambridge,ohio
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quote:
Originally posted by walkers4ever
to me all u get is alligators out of it and sure u can get some good ones but think about how tight that all gets for like bear dogs they do it to and they can get some real alligators breeding for more bite


it's ovious you dont know or are jealous of someones breeding program as mean dogs in a bear pack will die young!!!!!

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Old Post 10-08-2004 05:55 PM
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newhunter
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Dec 2003
Location: Owasso, OK
Posts: 705

Just for the fun of it, someone should post this question on the Shadetree board, and see the responses from the guys who catch big game regularly. In my opinion, the thing that nite hunts have done to coon hunting is make people breed to titled dogs instead of breeding to coondogs, sometimes they ain't the same. I have drawn a certain dog 3 or 4 times in local hunts here, it is a night CH dog, and I am sure he is a good one, but I have yet to see him tree a coon. To me, that is proof that you can earn titles with mediocre dogs. I want to see a dog go, and do what it's supposed to, before I breed my female to it. I like the big game mentality breed the best to the best. I know a big game breeder who breeds Walkers, but will crossbreed if he thinks it will help. He breeds for traits he likes and nothing else. He has developed some very good big game dogs, and he has a very hight rate of dogs that make it, like 8 out of 10. That is better than those who take a "brood" female (to me that is one who has good papers, but would not know a coon if it bit her in the nose) and breed her to the next high power titled dog to get some pups where half of them are worthless.

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Old Post 10-08-2004 06:07 PM
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wkfii
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Registered: Aug 2003
Location: Independence, Kentucky
Posts: 1348

quote:
Originally posted by newhunter
Just for the fun of it, someone should post this question on the Shadetree board, and see the responses from the guys who catch big game regularly. In my opinion, the thing that nite hunts have done to coon hunting is make people breed to titled dogs instead of breeding to coondogs, sometimes they ain't the same. I have drawn a certain dog 3 or 4 times in local hunts here, it is a night CH dog, and I am sure he is a good one, but I have yet to see him tree a coon. To me, that is proof that you can earn titles with mediocre dogs. I want to see a dog go, and do what it's supposed to, before I breed my female to it. I like the big game mentality breed the best to the best. I know a big game breeder who breeds Walkers, but will crossbreed if he thinks it will help. He breeds for traits he likes and nothing else. He has developed some very good big game dogs, and he has a very hight rate of dogs that make it, like 8 out of 10. That is better than those who take a "brood" female (to me that is one who has good papers, but would not know a coon if it bit her in the nose) and breed her to the next high power titled dog to get some pups where half of them are worthless.


Good points newhunter. There are two theories of breeding. Breeding for paper and breeding the best to the best. I don't think that there is an absolute right answer to this issue either. I do think that if a dog is bred, male or female, that they both ought to be good hunting hounds. Sometimes, you have to be aware of the paper because it will warn you of potential trouble or benefits in that some traits, desirable or undesirable, will jump generations. The first consideration however should be that both parents are good hunters.

I do agree with you that the competition hunts are to some extent driving the breeding and that that has had a detrimental affect upon all of our hounds. We need reform in that area in regard to judging, the rules, and some of those professional dog handlers that are dishonest. That is another issue however.

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Old Post 10-08-2004 09:37 PM
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wkfii
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Registered: Aug 2003
Location: Independence, Kentucky
Posts: 1348

quote:
Originally posted by bearhunter
WKFII,well stated Bill!


Thanks Sam. I forgot to mention that the Celts crossed their hounds with the Grey hound types to get speed. Probably the slick coats as well. LOL That one Walker of mine is even built like a greyhound. Won't run and tree a coon, but will run and tree a Bobcat with relish. I have seen him open up and flat out run in a field. He can put them down and pick them up. I wonder how close the greyhound blood is? LOL I suspect it's closer than one might think. Of course I have seen him, and other Walkers, pointing birds as well. LOL

You know I read the canned history on English Pointers. It claims that Pointers are descended from Foxhounds, Bull Terriers, Greyhounds, and a Spanish Pointer. I suspect that the first three dogs are to a large extent what a Foxhound really was at some time. I think that a lot of our coonhounds come by their Foxhound (and all that that entails) blood from English Pointers.

Last edited by wkfii on 10-21-2004 at 11:29 PM

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Old Post 10-08-2004 09:45 PM
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ed esposti
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Oct 2003
Location: Mahaffey, PA
Posts: 2362

im with the majority of you that papers dont tree coons. i do comp hunt but believe in breeding the best to the best. good pedigrees look nice but there is no garentee with them. some of the best dog ive hunted with were crosses. seems most people today forget about those good country coondogs that will go out there and tree ya a sack full of coon.

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Old Post 10-08-2004 10:47 PM
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Blue Reb
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Jan 2004
Location: Nebraska/Kansas
Posts: 507

Walkers.

There have been alot of posts on this that have been excellent. My apologies but your's were lousy. Breed an alligator Walker to an alligator Walker, you get an alliger Walker. Breed an alligator Walker to an alligator English you get a single registered alligator. If you want to make a cross, pure or crossbred you have to breed for desired traits you want. If someone you know crossbred for alligators, that's what they want. They could have bred purebred alligators as well. There have been many good crosses in crossbreeding and many bad ones too. There have also been many good and bad crosses in purebred hounds also. You can pick a dog from any breed with traits you like and also traits you dislike from any dog of any breed. Most of the breeds come from the same heritage anyway, simply seperated by color. UKC allows for crossing of breeds through single registry. Breeding the best to the best no matter what breed can never be a bad thing. Understand the whole titled to titled thing may not be the best either. Depends on characteristics to characteristics more than title to title. Too many people look at the caption rather than the big picture.

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Old Post 10-08-2004 11:04 PM
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MoHounds
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Registered: Oct 2004
Location: Good Ole Missouri
Posts: 6

A good dog is a good dog.
Some of the best dogs I ever hit the woods with were crossed. I use to know alot of old timers that didn't want pure breds they said they weren't smart enough, that you had to cross em to get any brains. Of course I don't "totaly" agree with that but I do know "papers don't tree a coon"

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Old Post 10-09-2004 06:19 AM
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Blister 1
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Jul 2003
Location: Illinois
Posts: 1190

If I raised any other breed other than Treeing Walkers, I would carry all my females down to Buzz Lynch and breed them to Rat Attack. Honestly I would.

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Old Post 10-09-2004 06:35 AM
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Blue Reb
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Jan 2004
Location: Nebraska/Kansas
Posts: 507

Blister, exactly what all the narrow minded, egotistical. a-holes are looking for. Good dogs are blue, red, white, black, any color as long as they are standing at the base of a tree. Even heinz 57 looks good under a coon. Get a dog or get a reason to complain about your problems, nuff said!

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