Registered: Jun 2003
Location: Missouri
Posts: 4321

Should the New Sectional Program final hunt use a tree countdown rule?

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Registered: Nov 2007
Location: ethridge,tn
Posts: 183

Not if ur hunting ukc rules

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Registered: Dec 2008
Location: tn
Posts: 3735

Whatevee floats there boat. As long as im in the woods,i dont mind.

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Registered: Sep 2003
Location: nashville,tn
Posts: 629

I would like to see a tree count down rule in place.
Most won't go for it cause they count on their me to dog to tail gate the coondog to the tree.

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Registered: Jul 2003
Location: Lockridge Iowa
Posts: 2848

Well I didn't vote. As for me it doesn't really matter one way or another it is in there and if the program passes the general membership meeting then so it is. I am sure after the first hunt if members didn't like it they could vote to have it taken out. To me if you know your dog you just adjust to the rule change for what you want or don't want. I don't believe that a count down makes a dog better or makes it worse it is just what handlers prefer or don't prefer.

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Registered: Mar 2006
Location: Southwest Missouri
Posts: 2057

People should probably read the other two threads on the topic to get a perspective on both sides before voting.

I don't have a problem with PKC rules or UKC rules, but I don't think merging the two sets of rules is the way to go. As I said in the other thread, when you give 125 points for first tree , AND throw a countdown in it , I think you have over-emphasized the tree side. Just my opinion.

Other than that, it's a really good program though.

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Mark Reavis
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Registered: Jan 2008
Location: Celina,TN
Posts: 128

I voted yes. I feel the tree countdown cuts out the backing. I feel like the 125 on first tree should be emphasized because if you want a true champion shouldn't that dog do the work instead of backing the dog that is treeing the coons. I want first tree on every tree because I can then say MY dog won the cast! He made the trees, he treed the coons, and he did it with no help. That is why I feel that the tree countdown should be used.

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Registered: Mar 2006
Location: Southwest Missouri
Posts: 2057

Brett, if you get 1st tree , you will win under either set of rules! No need to combine them just to make it a slaughter. lol

Giving a dog 125 points and a countdown both will cause a lot more blowouts in cast and result in people withdrawing even earlier than they already do.

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Mark Reavis
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Registered: Dec 2008
Location: tn
Posts: 3735

Make the tree a 100 and no prob. And keep countdown,or leave it 125 abd do away with countdown. Couple easy fixes.No big deal.
Especially, if thats the only prob to debate over.

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Registered: Jan 2008
Location: Celina,TN
Posts: 128

Well in my opinion if it's a blowout then your dog must not be up to at the level this hound was or just a bad night. The point of these competition is to compete. This is to pick the champion I feel the champion dog should do the work not by backing a dog but by doing it alone away from the pack. Keep the countdown and 125 tree. It helps those true coondogs that don't back 100 strike a better edge to catch up or runaway with the cast. I don't think a dog should back a to be honest because that is not showing what that dog can do besides cover.

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Registered: Sep 2007
Location: Raywick Ky
Posts: 1460

I think it;s good,,the last two times the progressive tree rule has came up ay AO ,,the b&t ascc has voted for it, so it's time we practice what we preach,,maybe other assc's will take notice and we will get it passed

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Registered: Jun 2003
Location: The Hawkeye State
Posts: 1317

The rules are built around the notion that all dog's hunt together to see which one is the best out of the cast. Correct?

I guess if its so important to have a dog by himself, maybe a one dog cast is the answer,your dog would never get covered by a me tooer,you would always have a first and first,and you would always be hunting alone...
Sound good?

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Registered: Jan 2008
Location: Celina,TN
Posts: 128

If it's a one dog cast then it's not really a competition in my opinion? Why would you want your dog to back another dog if he didn't strike the track or tree it? Let's say this if you had a dog in the Ukc world Finals only black dog in it. Blacky goes to left the others just run something in front of you. Blacky is struck for 25 then bam falls treed for 125. The dog toting 100 strike comes in the last second and grabs 75. They have a coon. You're down 25+. That's the only tree y'all make all night and neither of the two dogs take minus. Well you just grabbed 2nd place and lost the chance at the big world hunt money that I assumes still goes to the black dog that wins the whole thing. That 10,000 I think it was but anyway that cost you the cast. I know this is unlikely to happen but this is just a scenario. Of this cast had the tree countdown then you would've won the World hunt, the cash, the bragging rights, and all the other good stuff. Now how do you get that that dog that backed at the end to win as being the best of that pack when it didn't even run the track or tree it just instead went in checked the tree and decided to tree. I don't see how that's possible that Blacky did all the work and the other dog got the glory of winning? I'm not being mean or anything just stating my opinion.

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Registered: Jul 2003
Location: Lockridge Iowa
Posts: 2848

quote:

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Originally posted by Brett White
Let's say this if you had a dog in the Ukc world Finals only black dog in it. Blacky goes to left the others just run something in front of you. Blacky is struck for 25 then bam falls treed for 125. The dog toting 100 strike comes in the last second and grabs 75. They have a coon. You're down 25+. That's the only tree y'all make all night and neither of the two dogs take minus. Well you just grabbed 2nd place and lost the chance at the big world hunt money that I assumes still goes to the black dog that wins the whole thing.

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Brett what I would like to know is why did little Blacky not hunt faster and harder and get treed 5 seconds quicker then the other dog would not have been a factor!

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Registered: Sep 2003
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At one point in time , the extra points might have rewarded the dog that treed the coon .... but times have changed and our dogs have more tree.

Now , those extra tree points and closing the tree just mean an honest dog is punished .... you better not try and work a track or the treedog will swoop in and grab a tree off your hard work .... or a jealous dog can fall out of a tough race under an easy coon and get rewarded.


Split tree is not a first tree , it's just a tree ... first tree implies you beat other dogs there in a fair race ... do you say your dog got first tree when you hunt alone ?

Would Nascar be fun to watch if they top drivers all got their own track to run on by themselves ?

It's alot cooler to know your dog is finding the coon for the cast and can get it treed first honestly ..... splitting just to be splitting or falling out of a race under an easy one , or the treedogs that piggyback a track dog and steal trees ... that just don't seem like a B&T ... you breed for that stuff long and you are breeding the coondog out .

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Registered: Jul 2003
Location: Lockridge Iowa
Posts: 2848

quote:

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Originally posted by Dirtdevil


Now , those extra tree points and closing the tree just mean an honest dog is punished .... you better not try and work a track or the treedog will swoop in and grab a tree off your hard work .... or a jealous dog can fall out of a tough race under an easy coon and get rewarded.
.

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I don't care for a dog that quits anything to find low hanging fruit .... that's not why I coonhunt , I can spotlight and trap more than anyone can take with hounds ...

When a hound strikes or knows other dogs got the strike and he splits off to find his own ... he aint got enough coondog in his veins for me ... brains are good , but collies have brains ... what makes a coonhound unique is that trailing coon , jumping them and treeing them is one of the toughest things a scenthound can do ... the tougher and smarter the coon ... the more I like it ....

125 tree points and declining tree rule combine to punish a coondog and reward a high headed treedog that culls tracks or falls out for the easy ones .... and punishes any dog that tries to work up a coon or any cast where the dogs try and compete against each other.

The whole point of divvying up points and assigning point placement is that the dogs work the same track and tree ... that promotes smarter , better coondogs .

Split treeing and extra tree points promote hot noses and cur dogs ... that's fine if you like it , even better if you are hunting a cur or Walker ... everyone can be happy.

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Registered: Aug 2005
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Posts: 582

Dirt r saying u don't want your dogto split tree. Ukc casts, the winner is determined by which dog has the most points. If the loner trees 4 coons alone, and the other3 dogs 2 together. I would say the loner was thebetter dog that night.

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Registered: Oct 2006
Location: Pleasant Plain OHIO
Posts: 1291

quote:

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Originally posted by Billy George
The rules are built around the notion that all dog's hunt together to see which one is the best out of the cast. Correct?

I guess if its so important to have a dog by himself, maybe a one dog cast is the answer,your dog would never get covered by a me tooer,you would always have a first and first,and you would always be hunting alone...
Sound good?

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Registered: Sep 2003
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A split tree would mean two coon were struck together and then split up ... running away from the pack to tree your own is not a split tree , it's just a tree ... the track nor dog was ever joined with the rest to be split.

My better dogs have always treed their share alone ... but it's much more fun to tree alone because the other dogs can't smell the coon ... or trail in water and tree out in it ... or get through some rough terrain or something cool that really shows the difference in your dog's ability and the rest.

If a dog is culling tracks , splitting up after dogs are struck , etc ... then it's not a split tree nor is there a first tree when only one dog is tracking .... it's just a dog treeing coon WITHOUT competition .

Why go to a competition hunt , if you are afraid of competing against the other dogs on the same coon ?

I realize I am in the minority and that's now what wins hunts ... but I'ma say it anyway

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Registered: Jul 2003
Location: Lockridge Iowa
Posts: 2848

quote:

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Originally posted by Dirtdevil

My better dogs have always treed their share alone ... but it's much more fun to tree alone because the other dogs can't smell the coon ...

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Registered: Feb 2006
Location: Western Pa
Posts: 2106

What is missing is a true FIRST tree. If a dog blows in there hard and fast and gets hooked with a coon and dog 2,3, or 4 is off right or left handed and comes treed as the first tree closes....should it truly be scored as a "FIRST" tree? Your dog treed second or third or fourth!!!!

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Registered: Mar 2006
Location: Southwest Missouri
Posts: 2057

quote:

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Originally posted by Randy Tallon
What is missing is a true FIRST tree. If a dog blows in there hard and fast and gets hooked with a coon and dog 2,3, or 4 is off right or left handed and comes treed as the first tree closes....should it truly be scored as a "FIRST" tree? Your dog treed second or third or fourth!!!!

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Registered: Aug 2005
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Let me say I like a independent dog does not have to be 100 percent alone. Dirt devil if we turn my dog loose and mine goes right yours goes left if mine srikes 100 yards in and your is 250 yards in, do u want yours to come back to mine Also,, how can u say w/out competition if they were cut together. It sorta sounds like putting a heavier jockey on a racehorse to slow him down.

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Registered: Aug 2005
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Randy, I want that type, I think u can have both n the same package.

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