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Hoosier Outlaw
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Jun 2010
Location: Marion, Indiana
Posts: 4280

"Supercross"

Lately I have heard this term used quite a bit on threads about breeding.
I have seen some crosses described as supercrosses, but I am not sure exactly why. From a competition hunters standpoint I would think that a supercross would be judged upon the performance in competition and the titles earned by the pups that came from a particular cross....but I would like to hear what other redbone people think. I think this is a pretty new term and would like to know what people in this breed think as to what qualifies any cross to be labeled a supercross. I am asking as a competition hunter for opinions from others who share the same perspective. I would think that in competition dogs there is a record or paper trail, of titles and wins that could be used as a basis for earning the supercross label....whereas with pleasure dogs it would be more a matter of personal opinion as there would be no proof as to how good the dogs in a litter are except the opinion of the owners and people who have seen them in action. I am not saying there cant be a supercross from pleasure dogs...just that I am only interested in hearing what everyone thinks makes a supercross in competition dogs. What are, or should be the requirements for such a label and what are some crosses that you consider to be supercrosses and why?

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02-27-2013 08:33 PM

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Bobby Stevens
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Sep 2008
Location: Greeneville,Tn
Posts: 848

i dont know the numbers but i'm sure russell would remember as to the times he crossed ice X pepper = a super cross??? i dont know but i doubt any other 2 dogs were crossed more ??
if a super cross were found i would think that the breeder would make it til both dogs were unable to reproduce??
Supercross = Superhero = fictional characters made up in ones on mind or opinions??

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02-27-2013 08:43 PM

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Hoosier Outlaw
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Registered: Jun 2010
Location: Marion, Indiana
Posts: 4280

Bobby, I am personally not a big fan of repeat crosses because of all the repeat crosses made where the first cross was outstanding....the ones that followed rarely produced the same results. I studied this alot in the walker breed. I think the more linebred a cross is the more likely a 2nd or 3rd cross is to produce good results....but even that is not always the case. John Wick had a chapter in one of his books that detailed his study of repeat crosses as well as linebreeding and inbreeding and it was very informative.
So if I understand you right, you are saying that the cross you mentioned might be considered a supercross because they must have been producing good dogs because they kept repeating the cross?
I think the Rat x Raven cross was repeated several times as well and I know it is one that I would think many would consider a supercross

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02-27-2013 09:48 PM

Bobby Stevens
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Registered: Sep 2008
Location: Greeneville,Tn
Posts: 848

supercross ? i dont know about but if my memory is correct the only other dog russell ever bred pepper to was huey which was annie's dad i dont know what was reproduced out of that litter but i am pretty sure that every repeat cross he made with ice x pepper reproduced coon tree'rs titled?? i dont know about though?
i do remember reading about repeat crosses once upon a time mr oney told mr wick he didnt think the pups were as good out of a repeat cross or something of that nature?
and i've heard some of the older men say they didnt think pups were as good out of older dogs for what reason i have not got a clue?
i have watched in the walker breed alot of what i think some red breeders are trying to do and i can only hope that they have the same good results as they had in that breed truck winners,multi thousands of dollar winners and a very high percent of over all world ch's since records have been kept...
one can only hope to cull better than they have in the white breed to eliminate some of the bad that taking over a large portion of the white dogs ..

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02-27-2013 10:27 PM

Sawblade
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Jun 2003
Location: Pennsylvania
Posts: 1589

Supercross breeding

Supercross Breeding is a term that for the most part myself and Ryan Briggs use to describe one way to build a pedigree. I have heard many times people say a certain cross was a supercross. But that is not what we are talking about. Over the years certain crosses have produced a higher number of titled dogs than the average cross. When you research these crosses you sometimes find that this cross produced the highest number of titled dog for both the male and the female. That makes it a super cross. example. Yellow River Rocky was bred to many females yet when bred to Maggie that cross produced 5 GrNiteCh. No other cross on Rocky even comes close and Maggie also produced to best on Rocky . This was a "Supercross" what they really define is the one cross on any particular dog that produced the most titled offspring and many times these crosses represent the best the breed has seen. Building a ped based this cryteria is Supercross breeding. I can put one on paper and end up with a ped that for several generation shows some of the best proven crosses we have in the breed history.

Its a tool and I am convinced it works pretty good most the time.

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GrNiteCh Stone's Midnight Red Jake
NiteCh Brights Choctaw Night Time Sissy
NiteCh Sawblade Red Reckon
NiteCh Brasee Red Penny
NiteCh Nacalus Mandolin
Yellow River Fiddle II " good reproducer"
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NiteCh Morgan's Boone " sister to Fiddle"
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Sawblade Ribbon,

They are bred with heart and drive included.

From a small kennel with Big results.

Last edited by Sawblade on 02-28-2013 at 01:21 AM

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02-28-2013 01:17 AM

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Butterbean26
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Mar 2008
Location: clarksville,IN
Posts: 625

"SUPER CROSS"

Mr. Mike Wright of Nashville Arkansas came up with this term in the redbone breed many years ago my friend, So that being said he could answer your question without a doubt.

"SUPER CROSS"
Now for my opinion I don't think anyone on God's Great earth can determine a SUPER CROSS unless that cross has been made before,,, But still nothing in life is for sure. We all have opinions of what we think a SUPER CROSS is or can and will be but the fact of the matter is we really don't know if it was indeed a SUPER CROSS until all the dogs in that particular litter has had time to finish out and i have never seen one finished in 2 or 3 years, I have seen them titled out but they were not done learning,,, Just my opinion guy's it takes years to determine weather or not it was a SUPER CROSS,,,

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02-28-2013 01:43 AM

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jdgher
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Jul 2003
Location: East central Illinois.
Posts: 1701

Hey Bean,
Is it ok if I use the term SUPER DOOPER CROSS? Or has that
term already been used? Ask Mike for me.

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02-28-2013 02:06 AM

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Sawblade
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Jun 2003
Location: Pennsylvania
Posts: 1589

Mike

I believe ya Bean ,I ain't laying claim to the word , I'm just explaining what we up here call the supercross breeding method.

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02-28-2013 02:59 AM

Hoosier Outlaw
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Jun 2010
Location: Marion, Indiana
Posts: 4280

I got dibs on "Ultracross" for future use

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02-28-2013 03:00 AM

Butterbean26
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Mar 2008
Location: clarksville,IN
Posts: 625

Bwahahahaha You guy's are killin me,,,, Bwahahahaha Hey Derrin,, I like it.... Ladies and Gentlemen, Children of all ages... Stay tuned for the SUPER DOOPER ULTRA CROSS,,, Just remember guy's yall are EVERYTHING IM NOTHING. Bwahahahahaha Just having fun guy's,, Can't wait to see everyone this year.

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02-28-2013 03:30 AM

Butterbean26
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Mar 2008
Location: clarksville,IN
Posts: 625

If your going to make a SUPER DOOPER ULTRA CROSS,,, You better invest in a good pair of LACROSS,,, BWAHAHA BWAHAHAH BWAHAHA

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02-28-2013 03:32 AM

Butterbean26
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Registered: Mar 2008
Location: clarksville,IN
Posts: 625

Re: Mike

quote:
Originally posted by Sawblade
I believe ya Bean ,I ain't laying claim to the word , I'm just explaining what we up here call the supercross breeding method.

LOL Kelley you Da man !!!

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02-28-2013 03:34 AM

rickp
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Registered: Oct 2011
Location: Utica Oklahoma
Posts: 887

If the genetics of two dogs produce when crossed once why would it not when they were crossed again?

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02-28-2013 04:45 AM

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Hoosier Outlaw
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Registered: Jun 2010
Location: Marion, Indiana
Posts: 4280

quote:
Originally posted by rickp
If the genetics of two dogs produce when crossed once why would it not when they were crossed again?

I knew of two redbones who were bred together 2 times and in the first cross there were 4 all red pups and 2 black pups. The 2nd time this exact same cross was made there were 7 pups and all 7 were all red. It was a repeat cross of the same 2 parents so why wasn't there some black pups in the 2nd litter. Incidentally, 3 of the all red pups from the 1st litter made great dogs (the all black ones were culled) none of the pups from the 2nd cross made above average dogs and all but one was culled by the time they turned 3.

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02-28-2013 07:02 AM

Sawblade
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Jun 2003
Location: Pennsylvania
Posts: 1589

Pending

Listen up, I have applied for a copyright on the term Supercross Breeding, anyone using that term will now have to send me 12 and one half cents for each time they use it along with a picture of themselves with any two dogs who's mating is decribed that way. ...................Show me the money, I'm Gonna be RICH !!!! LOL, LOL, LOL.

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02-28-2013 01:20 PM

Richard Lambert
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Aug 2004
Location: Chattanooga, Tn
Posts: 22586

Kelly,...Gr Nt Ch Dark Timber T-Top Moose X 'PR' L's Dark Timber Wendy....I am sending you a check for 12 1/2 cents today.

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02-28-2013 03:31 PM

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RED REBELS
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Oct 2007
Location: Medford, WI
Posts: 3312

quote:
Originally posted by tylerman
And you just bred to Jet..a 2nd cross?

Cuz Jet is worth it... just a thought.

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02-28-2013 04:09 PM

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Don Barnett Sr
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Feb 2008
Location: Arkansas
Posts: 1182

SUPERCROSS

I don't know about being a SUPERCROSS or not. But if you will get yourself a shot of the Moose, Deuce, Haze, Rocky,Red or most any of these T-Top dogs . You will get yourself some SUPERCHARGED hounds. GET GONE, TREEDOGS! LOL
Put cha boots on good and tight, and lets good beat some brush.
This is all good reading guys, keep it up. And lets have a good time with it.

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02-28-2013 04:14 PM

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Don Barnett Sr
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Feb 2008
Location: Arkansas
Posts: 1182

Repeat cross

You bet I will, and have, and will again. I have not seen any problems with the repeat crosses I have made. I think the second cross was better than the first. Yes there where a couple slow starters in both. Maybe even a couple culls, that is yet to be seen. Mark is your female a slow starter, a cull, or is she doing what you expect of her. Lets talk about it.
The only problem I have is with PEOPLE. They are bad to not do what they say they will do. Oh yes I want a pup, I will hunt it, and I will keep you posted on it's progress. They get a pup for free, and then nothing.
But I will not let them stop me from doing all I can to help the sport I love and the breed of hound I choose.
This is a very good thread, I ain't a breeder. But I am trying to come up with a better coondog than I have now. Thanks for all the helpful info. Lets learn some, Keep it coming guy's.

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02-28-2013 05:01 PM

mmarshall
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Oct 2012
Location: east ohio
Posts: 1277

I think the more linebred a cross is the more likely a 2nd or 3rd cross is to produce good results....but even that is not always the case.

Cookie (Amos/ace/chief)
Ratt (Amos/ace)
Kate (Amos/ace/chief)
L pep dam jill(Amos/ace/chief)
Line bred not that it matters Shane didn't make that cross the first or second time to reproduce jet
Doug and Danny picked jet after hunting him for his traits fast strike lock down tree dog just like bree bo kate Shane agreed

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02-28-2013 05:24 PM

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Hoosier Outlaw
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Jun 2010
Location: Marion, Indiana
Posts: 4280

Thats exactly right Mark.
Danny and Doug do not get on the forums....not even sure if they even read anything on here. But Doug did alot of work with Bree when she was young and then Danny gave me the chance to be a partner on her and I have been grateful ever since. I don't say enough about Danny and Doug on this forum (because they like to stay under the radar) but they are key players in this line and are responsible for many, many great dogs who have come from this line and are very active in planning crosses, starting pups and deciding whos hands to place those pups in. The breed would not be the same without them or others like them.

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02-28-2013 05:56 PM

Sawblade
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Jun 2003
Location: Pennsylvania
Posts: 1589

Danny and Doug

Those men have been behind many dogs that will end up being our current and future supercross hounds. Great job by both.

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02-28-2013 06:02 PM

Calamity in Ca.
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Sep 2007
Location: Anza, Ca.
Posts: 100

"Supercross"

If I can beleive what I read on here, all of you in this conversation have made crosses that most would agree were "super"...( short for superior) You could call it anything you want and most would at least cock an ear.......

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02-28-2013 06:07 PM

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Richard Lambert
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Aug 2004
Location: Chattanooga, Tn
Posts: 22586

Re: Supercross breeding

quote:
Originally posted by Sawblade
this cross produced the highest number of titled dog for both the male and the female. That makes it a super cross. example.

So when you mate 2 offspring that have come from supercrosses, this would be a super dooper cross. And if you then mated 2 offsring that have come from super dooper crosses, this would be a super dooper ultra cross. Do I have this right, Kelly? How much money do we have to send you in order to call a breeding a super dooper ultra cross?

Bomber X Bell = Raven and Pigeon
Rat X Raven = Rabble
Rabble X Pigeon = Haze
Lil Zack X Sweetie = Sally
Rabble X Sally = Moose and Willow
Haze X Willow = Wendy
Moose X Wendy = PUPS

How much money do I need to send???

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02-28-2013 06:18 PM