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deadeye ruck
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Jan 2009
Location: Rocky Mount, VA
Posts: 1285

Scoring questions for a rainy day

I have been using these rainy days to read and reread through the rules and advisor. I haven't seen many rules questions lately so here goes:

Nite Ch Four dog cast- Dogs A, B, C, D strike in that order. Dogs work a track and split up. Dogs A, B, C then tree in that order. 5 minutes are up and cast proceeds into tree. Cast has to cover lots of ground and on the way, dog D is heard in the proximity of the other dogs and comes into the same tree the other dogs are treed on after it has closed but the handler does not tree the dog knowing it's on the closed tree. How is dog D scored if:

1- a coon is seen and dogs A, B, C are plussed
2- tree is circled (obvious den, no question)
3- tree is minused

Bear in mind, the cast (and judge) have not made it to the tree when dog D comes into the tree.

I have interpreted it as follows:

Scenerio 1- Per rule 4(d)- Dog D is minused strike points only. In this case, he would be -25 strike for a total of -25.

Scenario 3- Dog D is assigned tree points and then minused both strike and tree. In this case, he would be -25 strike and -25 tree for a total of -50.

Scenario 2 is where my question arises- what happens to dog D in this case? Are just his strike points circled? I can't seem to find a definitive answer but I may have overlooked it. I know how to score this after the judge has arrived but what about before?

Feel free to critique. I want to learn!

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Last edited by deadeye ruck on 01-15-2013 at 08:04 PM

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01-15-2013 07:55 PM

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john Duemmer
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Registered: Mar 2008
Location: Western N.Y.
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This has always been a confusing situation for me. I think on a circle tree Dog Ds strike points are deleted useing rule 5g

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01-15-2013 08:45 PM

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tntkennels
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Strike points are deleted

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01-15-2013 08:51 PM

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JiM
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Sep 2010
Location: New Paris, Indiana
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5(g) does not apply here because dog D was not shut out on strike. All four dogs struck in order BEFORE any dog was treed.
Rules 5 (c) thru (h) list all the situations where strike points can be deleted. None of them apply to the above situation. The answer to part 2 is strike points circled.

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01-15-2013 09:27 PM

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JiM
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Also, in the third situation, deadeye doesn't make it clear whether or not dog D was actually treeing when the cast arrived. That makes a difference. If dog D was treeing, he is in fact minused both ways under rule 4(g). However if dog D is just there but not treeing when handled, he then gets circled strike points.

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01-15-2013 09:35 PM

walkerdog1
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Registered: Feb 2012
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Strik is deleted unless a coon is seen

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01-15-2013 09:59 PM

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jculler8
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Sep 2007
Location: Western Pa
Posts: 3377

quote:
Originally posted by JiM
Also, in the third situation, deadeye doesn't make it clear whether or not dog D was actually treeing when the cast arrived. That makes a difference. If dog D was treeing, he is in fact minused both ways under rule 4(g). However if dog D is just there but not treeing when handled, he then gets circled strike points.

This is a very good explanation of a rule that is always misinterpreted.

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GA DAWG
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All yall but Jim better keep reading!!

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nccoonhunter197
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Jun 2008
Location: Taylorsville, NC
Posts: 1320

quote:
Originally posted by walkerdog1
Strik is deleted unless a coon is seen

Strike is not deleted in any of these scenarios. Jim hit the rules and scoring dead on. Dog D is held accountable for strike points unless it is shut out.

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01-15-2013 10:14 PM

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john Duemmer
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Registered: Mar 2008
Location: Western N.Y.
Posts: 3995

I think alot of confusion has to do with weather a dog is shut out on strike or shut out on the tree and the scorecard doesnt differentiate. 3d states shut out on strike but 5g doesnt say weather it refers to strike or tree.

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01-15-2013 10:20 PM

deadeye ruck
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Registered: Jan 2009
Location: Rocky Mount, VA
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This is just a theoretical scenario and it hasn't happened to me....yet

I'm not trying to muddy the waters any more than they are but let's say in the original scenario, D came into the tree before the judge arrived and was treeing but not declared treed. Dog D wasn't shut out on strike in the original scenario- He got a piece of it before the other dogs treed. Sorry- I left out that detail

How would it change if dog D WAS shut out on strike?

If it's plussed- the dog is supposed to be minused according to 4(d) but they don't have any strike points to minus?

If it's minused- dog D will be assigned tree points and minused also but won't take minus on strike according to 4(g).

If it's circled?...

Last edited by deadeye ruck on 01-15-2013 at 10:34 PM

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01-15-2013 10:23 PM

JiM
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Location: New Paris, Indiana
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In the original scene, D is treeing but not declared treed when the judge arrives, he gets minused strike and next available postion on tree.

If the dog was shutout on strike, then strike points are deleted in every situation you can have. If the dog was treeing but not declared treed when the judge arrived at a minus tree, tree points are assigned and minused, strike deleted when shut out. So you can have your strike deleted and still get minused tree points in that situation.

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01-15-2013 10:54 PM

Griffith
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if dog D was mine id be minusing him .22 when we got home

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01-16-2013 12:04 AM

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Randy Howard
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quote:
Originally posted by Griffith
if dog D was mine id be minusing him .22 when we got home

Oh no you wouldn't, other dogs were minused and next dump you had 1st strike and other 3 were struck and treed and just before time was up on the hunt you treed deep and lonely and other dogs were treed on a possum and yours had a coon. Would you minus him .22 now?

This is just another scenario

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01-16-2013 12:25 AM

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jawscardodger
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Registered: Mar 2004
Location: CT
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quote:
Originally posted by JiM
Also, in the third situation, deadeye doesn't make it clear whether or not dog D was actually treeing when the cast arrived. That makes a difference. If dog D was treeing, he is in fact minused both ways under rule 4(g). However if dog D is just there but not treeing when handled, he then gets circled strike points.

Jim how can a dog be handled at a tree but not be treeing. Unless he quit his track then he should be minus strike

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01-16-2013 12:42 AM

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Randy Howard
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Question dogs advancing up on tree?

A B C D treed, arrive at tree find dog B split, B advances up to 125, so do C and D advance up also to 75 and 50?

Had this one in a cast- Dog A treed and dog B treed arrive dog A has left does dog B move up to 1st tree or does it stay as called? I believed it should have stayed the same B should have scored for 75 and not moved up right?But Dog B handler said how do we know they were not split,(But were in deed thought to be together at the time)

Last edited by Randy Howard on 01-16-2013 at 02:40 AM

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01-16-2013 02:36 AM

JiM
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Sep 2010
Location: New Paris, Indiana
Posts: 7076

quote:
Originally posted by jawscardodger
Jim how can a dog be handled at a tree but not be treeing. Unless he quit his track then he should be minus strike

All dogs at the tree must be handled, treeing or not.

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01-16-2013 05:17 AM

Plott55
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quote:
Originally posted by JiM
All dogs at the tree must be handled, treeing or not.

Jim, I think your still missing a point, When a dog is called struck; the strick is open until the dog trees, quits the track or time out is called.

When the dog trees, The strike points are plus-minus or circle; If the dog quits the track they are minus and when time out is called they are circled.

When Dog D was called struck, strike points were activated. When he was found at the tree, he had to be declared treed and unite the strick with the tree points, or else be minused for quiting the track.

If D HAD been called treed he could have been plus minus or circle but since he was just at the tree, he had to be considered quiting the track that he was carrying, dogs are minused for quiting a track!!!!!!!

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01-16-2013 10:15 AM

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nccoonhunter197
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Registered: Jun 2008
Location: Taylorsville, NC
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quote:
Originally posted by Plott55
Jim, I think your still missing a point, When a dog is called struck; the strick is open until the dog trees, quits the track or time out is called.

When the dog trees, The strike points are plus-minus or circle; If the dog quits the track they are minus and when time out is called they are circled.

When Dog D was called struck, strike points were activated. When he was found at the tree, he had to be declared treed and unite the strick with the tree points, or else be minused for quiting the track.

If D HAD been called treed he could have been plus minus or circle but since he was just at the tree, he had to be considered quiting the track that he was carrying, dogs are minused for quiting a track!!!!!!!

Are you a lawyer? You are trying to dig way to deep. The dog is at the tree and is not going anywhere.......so the dog has to be scored according to the tree. If not every dog that stops treeing when the handler arrives would be minused for quiting track. A dog does not have to bark treed to show the end of the track....they have to bark treed to be called as such.

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01-16-2013 11:57 AM

JiM
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Location: New Paris, Indiana
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quote:
Originally posted by Plott55
Jim, I think your still missing a point, When a dog is called struck; the strick is open until the dog trees, quits the track or time out is called.

When the dog trees, The strike points are plus-minus or circle; If the dog quits the track they are minus and when time out is called they are circled.

When Dog D was called struck, strike points were activated. When he was found at the tree, he had to be declared treed and unite the strick with the tree points, or else be minused for quiting the track.

If D HAD been called treed he could have been plus minus or circle but since he was just at the tree, he had to be considered quiting the track that he was carrying, dogs are minused for quiting a track!!!!!!!

This is a very common misinterpretation. It has been addressed by UKC on this board several times and written up in the Advisor book, both editions, plus the magazine column. The short version is that a dog cannot be minused FOR QUITTING A TRACK any time it is handled at a tree. It can be plussed, minused or circled, depending on how the tree is scored but those strike points cannot be deleted and you cannot minus strike for quitting the track when a dog is handled at the tree. If you don't believe me or don't understand, your next move should be to call Allen or Paul at UKC. They are professionsl explainers.

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01-16-2013 02:33 PM

deadeye ruck
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Location: Rocky Mount, VA
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Re: Question dogs advancing up on tree?

quote:
Originally posted by Randy Howard
A B C D treed, arrive at tree find dog B split, B advances up to 125, so do C and D advance up also to 75 and 50?

Had this one in a cast- Dog A treed and dog B treed arrive dog A has left does dog B move up to 1st tree or does it stay as called? I believed it should have stayed the same B should have scored for 75 and not moved up right?But Dog B handler said how do we know they were not split,(But were in deed thought to be together at the time)

Randy,

In your first scenario, Dog B moves to 125 and C and D also move up one respective position.

In your second scenario, dog B does not move up- he stays at 75. The advisor is clear in the interpretation of this. Most of the time the rules give the dog the benefit of the doubt- but not this time.

Simon

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01-16-2013 05:15 PM

deadeye ruck
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Location: Rocky Mount, VA
Posts: 1285

quote:
Originally posted by JiM
All dogs at the tree must be handled, treeing or not.

quote:
Originally posted by JiM
This is a very common misinterpretation. It has been addressed by UKC on this board several times and written up in the Advisor book, both editions, plus the magazine column. The short version is that a dog cannot be minused FOR QUITTING A TRACK any time it is handled at a tree. It can be plussed, minused or circled, depending on how the tree is scored but those strike points cannot be deleted and you cannot minus strike for quitting the track when a dog is handled at the tree. If you don't believe me or don't understand, your next move should be to call Allen or Paul at UKC. They are professionsl explainers.

Jim's right- if you read through the advisor, it's pretty clear on how to handle this.

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01-16-2013 05:17 PM

Treespot
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Could you tell where in the advisor it says you can handle a dog at a tree with out him being considered treed.

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jabrown
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quote:
Originally posted by Treespot
Could you tell where in the advisor it says you can handle a dog at a tree with out him being considered treed.

Page 38, current advisor.

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01-16-2013 06:37 PM