Registered: Aug 2003
Location: Madison, Virginia
Posts: 199

Forwarding and cross posting requested.

The thread below is reproduced from the AKC Coonhound Message Forum. That board routinely deletes questions about PAWS and is now totally discredited, along with the AKC Coonhound Director, Steve Fielder. This message is posted here because it wouldn't last an eye-blink on AKC's board.

To use a $5 word, Mr. Fielder is a dissembler. He'll say anything for a buck or to promote himself. As he's jumped from registry to registry, he's never demonstrated any depth of thought or intellect. At least, that's been my experience dealing with him.

I never said to him or anyone else "Your Michigan Hunting Dog Federation is just a bunch of ignorant coon hunters that want to make the folks think you are a "sporting" dog association because you run photos of bird dogs on your web site." That's a total self-serving AKC fabrication inspired by my opposition to PAWS, which on July 26th Fielder told this list he didn't know anything about, due his busy and successful department schedule. I value houndsmen's opinions and support Two of the breed's local leaders are on Virginia Hunting Dog Owners Association's five man board to insure we address their concerns. http://vhdoa.uplandbirddog.com/leader.html Eric Hardy was a SAOVA2004 volunteer and other houndsmen were part of SAOVA2002.

Fielder also states "The list of AKC Parent Clubs opposing PAWS in your example is ficticious. No AKC Parent Breed Club has officially opposed PAWS."

That's a bald faced lie and he knows it. Twenty-three AKC parent breed clubs have filed official PAWS opposition statements with the U.S. Congress and I have a copy of every one of them. So does the AKC. Those clubs represent 58% of all AKC registrations and that registry continues to ignore and belittle its constituents.

There are 171 groups opposed to PAWS that I've verified by receiving their statements to legislators. One of statewide groups that filed an opposition statement is the Michigan Hunting Dog Federation, with whom Fielder used to be associated. Dr. Al Stinson's letter to the AKC and Congress opposing PAWS was one of the most forceful that I've seen.

There's not enough room on this board or time in the day to point out the details of all of Fielder's PAWS distortions and the bill's expected impact on hunting dog owners. See the following sites for the true information

http://saova.org/1139.html
http://www.ncraoa.com/alerts.html
http://www.dfow.org/paws.htm

Also trust that Wayne Cavanaugh, Cindy Cooke and I know what we're doing and are playing it straight with houndsmen about PAWS. Don't hold your breath for Fielder, the AKC, HSUS and PETA to tell you the truth.

Bob Kane
Sportsmen's and Animal Owners' Voting Alliance -
Working to identify and elect supportive legislators
** Defeat S1139/HR2669 (PAWS) **
http://saova.org/1139.html

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

toby lester Posted: Sun Aug 07, 2005 6:18 pm Post subject: Mr. Steve, got a question about paws


Joined: 07 Aug 2005
Posts: 6

Hello Steve

I have met you many times(not sure if you even know who I am) and greatly respect you. HOwever, I don't understand how you can continue to say that we are too ignorant to understand PAWS. I have a few questions, please try to answer and not delete this post. I thank you in advance for answering, ESPECIALLY QUESTIONS 1 AND 2


1. If I raise 5 liters of pups, 6 pups per liter and have to be licensed, what will the standards be to get a license? will my simple dog house and chain pass or will I have to have an elaborate setup since I will be classified the same as a puppy mill?

2. If I don't "pass" what will immediately happen to my dogs? (if you don't know the answers to questions 1 and 2 then the biggest question is why are you pro-PAWS)

3. Will AKC attempt to contract through the USDA to do the inspections of "kennels" to make money.

4. If AKC is allowed to do this why can't Animal rights groups do the same?

5. PETA calls PAWS an important FIRST STEP in their agenda, do you feel we should allow them to win this important first step?

6. Every known dog/hunting/pet organization known (or at least that I know) is against PAWS, yet AKC, PETA is for it. you continue to say that we just don't get it. Is it possible, just possible that the following list of organizations against the bill get it but AKC and PETA do not? Can each of these organizations be wrong and where are the Pro-PAWS groups, besides AKC and the animal rights activists?
Dr. Carmen L. Battaglia - German Shepherd Dog Club of America
Thomas M. Davies, DVM - Springfield Kennel Club
Ken Marden - German Shorthaired Pointer Club of America
Asa Mays, DVM - Hutchinson Kennel Club (absent)
Patti Strand - Dog Fanciers Association of Oregon
above are all AKC board members and delegates

National Groups

Pet Industry Joint Advisory Council
Sportsmen's and Animal Owners' Voting Alliance
Cat Fanciers' Association
The Animal Council
National Animal Interest Alliance
American Dog Owners' Association
United Kennel Club
Master of Fox Hounds Association
U.S. Sportsmen's Alliance
[clipped]

AKC Parent Breed Clubs
American Brittany Club
American Shetland Sheepdog Association
American Chesapeake Club
German Shorthaired Pointer Club of America
American Pomeranian Club
Papillon Club of America
Dachshund Club of America
Pug Dog Club of America
English Springer Spaniel Field Trial Association
Yorkshire Terrier Club of America
Chinese Shar-Pei Club of America
American Spaniel Club
American Boxer Club
Saluki Club of America
Saint Bernard Club of America
Scottish Terrier Club of America
American Cavalier King Charles Spaniel Club
Labrador Retriever Club of America
American Brussels Griffon Association
Golden Retriever Club of America
German Shepherd Dog Club of America
American Miniature Schnauzer Club
-
The clubs shown above represent 55.4% of AKC's registrations.


Statewide Organizations

Virginia Hunting Dog Owners' Association
Dog Federation of Wisconsin
California Federation of Dog Clubs
Missouri Federation of Animal Owners
Responsible Pet Owners Alliance (Texas)
North Carolina Responsible Animal Owners' Alliance
North Carolina Sporting Dogs Association
Federation of Maine Dog Clubs
Virginia Bear Hunters Association
Responsible Animal Owners of Tennessee
Illinois Federation of Outdoor Resources
North Carolina Field Trial Association
Amateur Field Trial Clubs of America - Region 12 (AZ & NM)
Amateur Field Trial Clubs of America - Region 7 (TX)
Nebraska Brittany Club
Field Trial Clubs of Illinois
Montana State Houndsmen Association
Illinois Regional Brittany Club
Illinois Brittany Championship Association

Michigan Association for Pure Bred Dogs
Michigan Hunting Dog Federation
[clipped]


Local Organizations

[clipped]
Western Clinton Sportsmen's Association (PA)
New Brunswick Kennel Club (NJ)
St. Croix Valley Brittany Club (MN)
Fanciers Cocker Spaniel Club of Southern WI
Susquehanna Brittany Club (PA)
Salisbury Kennel Club (NC)
[clipped]

Salt Lake Doberman Pinscher Club (UT)
Cochise Bird Dog Club (AZ)
German Shorthaired Pointer Club of Central Virginia
Sacramento Bird Dog Club (CA)
[clipped]
Hudson Valley Brittany Club (NY)
Shenandoah Valley Kennel Club (VA)
Walkfar Coonhunter’s Coon Club (NC)

[Clipped]


Gloria Olexa Posted: Mon Aug 08, 2005 12:57 am Post subject:
That's quite a list of groups against PAWS. Why is there so little debate here about PAWS? It is a very hot topic on other sites but most of the posts on here have few or no replies.

Steve Fielder Posted: Mon Aug 08, 2005 11:12 am Post subject: Toby...

Director of Coonhound Events

Joined: 09 Jan 2005
Posts: 687

Toby,

I have not been given the task of defending PAWS. I am head over heels in the development of the coonhound program here.

I never said anyone was too ignorant to understand PAWS. AKC continually updates PAWS information on the AKC main web site at www.akc.org/ Jerry Moll has posted that information on this board as well. If you are against it, call your representative and tell them so.

AKC believes if it opposes PAWS, you the hobby breeder will have no exemption. PAWS is not AKC's legislation. I have said this repeatedly. AKC did not write PAWS. AKC was asked for input and did so to protect hobby breeders. PAWS was a fact of life, AKC or no AKC.

Read AKC's answers to frequently asked questions about PAWS. If you disagree, contact your representatives and tell them so.

Again, you are asking me for all the reasons why you should or should not support PAWS and all I can tell you is that you are totally unprotected as a hobby breeder today. PAWS gives you an exemption if you raise fewer than 7 litters, etc. PAWS absolutely does not limit the number of dogs you can raise.

Now, here are some facts:

AKC has been a pro-hunting organization since its inception. The first pointing dog trials were held back around 1890 and birds have been killed in all those events, every year, since then. No one hosts more events annually for hunting dogs than does AKC.

The list of AKC Parent Clubs opposing PAWS in your example is ficticious. No AKC Parent Breed Club has officially opposed PAWS. Most of these"clubs" have been compiled by Bob Kane of Virginia, who has always been an AKC critic with an agenda. He once told me, "Your Michigan Hunting Dog Federation is just a bunch of ignorant coon hunters that want to make the folks think you are a "sporting" dog association because you run photos of bird dogs on your web site."

Folks there's a whole lot of truth that isn't being told but it will be.
_________________
AKC Coonhound Events

Last edited by Todd K / UKC on 08-10-2005 at 04:23 PM

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Bob..............I saw that the other day and couldn't believe that he is now posting false info ---- or what some would call lies.

Here is my post on it:

http://ukcdogs.com/forums/showthrea...;threadid=60978

It seems that they must really have their backs to the wall now or they wouldn't be having to start posting false (lies) info to people seeking info on PAWS.

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(only leaving this up because in fairness, it does appear he was called out)

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Has nobody even picked up on the statement that Steve wrote above. That statement being "AKC has been a pro-hunting organization since its inception. The first pointing dog trials were held back around 1890 and birds have been killed in all those events, every year, since then. No one hosts more events annually for hunting dogs than does AKC."

Let's see the proof of this. Let's see a public statement from AKC stating that they are pro-hunting. Let's see it on the AKC.org site not the coonhound site that their "normal" customers never see. I would also like to see their numbers of events and see how they could possibly host more hunting dog events than UKC or PKC.

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Location: TN
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quote:

---

Originally posted by todd kellam
(only leaving this up because in fairness, it does appear he was called out)

---

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That's a good "what if" Jonathon because I don't think Wayne or I would have made the post he did that started it.

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Of course anything negative about another Kennel Club will die of old age on here.

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quote:

---

Originally posted by Steve O.
No one hosts more events annually for hunting dogs than does AKC."

Let's see the proof of this. Let's see a public statement from AKC stating that they are pro-hunting. Let's see it on the AKC.org site not the coonhound site that their "normal" customers never see. I would also like to see their numbers of events and see how they could possibly host more hunting dog events than UKC or PKC.

---

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quote:

---

Originally posted by jonathan w.
Of course anything negative about another Kennel Club will die of old age on here.

---

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And of course you're going to get every dig in on UKC that you can. So what else is new?

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Once again I'll say, I tried several months ago to tell you guys that akc was no good. And as usual, no one listened. Hate to say "I told you so" but oh well, what the heck............................. " I TOLD YOU SO" ROFL ROFL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL

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quote:

---

Originally posted by Steve O.
"AKC has been a pro-hunting organization since its inception. The first pointing dog trials were held back around 1890 and birds have been killed in all those events, every year, since then."

---

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Mr Fielder keeps saying over and over and over and over again that the USDA could walk onto your property right now and inspect you. My question is how in the world would the USDA even know that you exist? The truth is they don't even know that 90% of dog breeders exist, or at least where they are located. The way they will know that we exist is when AKC gives them our addresses. AKC has those addresses now too. Everyone that fell for the free registration deal gave their name to the USDA. You are now an AKC Breeder and on their "list". Ot sounded cool at first to get free registrations but now it could cost us much more in the end.

Another thing. What if when AKC sends their full list of everyone that registered a dog that year to the USDA your name appears with raising only 3 litters of puppies and selling 18 dogs. You sure won't get a visit from the USDA inpector because you are not big enough. I bet you do get a visit from the IRS for not claiming the income from those sales.

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Location: Indiana
Posts: 6168

Hold the phone.

I would like to ask, beg, plead, and urge evey one of us to "take a step back" at this point.

The PAWS proposal is real, it's not going to go away. I have my own opinion of the ammendment, it's impact to our way of raising, owning, breeding, and training our hounds. To tell you the truth, at this point my opinion does not matter.

What really matters is this. At the end of the day we are all coon hunters. We all have jobs and families, and the one thing that we all have in common is our love of hounds and hunting with our dogs.

What we are doing now is causing a huge division amongst our own kind. When the PAWS legislation is passed, or defeated, or altered, or never makes it out of committee....we are left with WHAT? I am most concerned with the fact that the only thing that I think we can all agree on 100% is that the fight over this legislation is certainly causing a break down in our solidarity. Let's face it folks, there are way more animal rights groups out there today that would like to see our right to own hounds, and follow them into the night. Most certainly at some point in the future our right to enjoy our sport is going to come under fire, and if we are all setting in different camps, aligned with different kennel clubs that can't seem to agree on anything because they are in direct competition with each other, where will that leave us?

I for one hold no animosity for anyone based upon thier beliefs about this legislative proposal. My question here is why have we allowed this to become "personal"? Have we lost the focus here? If you are opposed to the legislation, attacking people who see things differently than you do will do nothing other than tear us apart, leaving us vunerable to those that would strip us of our rights.

The "who said what" stuff is getting old, and reminds me of a fourth grade recess conversation.

I ask you to examine your thoughts and ask yourself the question...what is it I am fighting against? Am I really doing anything to ensrue that the legislation is defeated, or am I simply beating down those that have a different view than I do? Will the words or accusations that I type on a message board, or send in the mail, or convey to fellow hunters have a detrimental effect to our sport down stream? Am I driving a wedge between myself and someone that may be called on to support my sport and my rights to enjoy hounds and hunting with hounds in the future? Am I opposing a piece of legislation, or am I opposing an organization or individual? Remember, there are lots of folks that read this board and monitor it every day......

Folks like it or not...even if this legislation is defeated by our efforts, we are losing the over all battle. One of the most basic warfare strategies is "divide and conquor"........

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quote:

---

Originally posted by todd kellam
(only leaving this up because in fairness, it does appear he was called out)

---

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Posted by Oak Ridge

"Folks like it or not...even if this legislation is defeated by our efforts, we are losing the over all battle. One of the most basic warfare strategies is "divide and conquor"........"


Well said!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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NO NOT STEVE F.!!!!!!!!!!! I remember a big decision in a final world hunt that someone overturned the judges ruling to call controversity to the coon hound world OOO NNNOOOOOOO NNNoooooooTTTTTTTTT STEVE!!! ROFLMAO Good OLD STEVE!!

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quote:

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Originally posted by Hiphop
UKC allows us to post how we feel, they don't edit and ban to promote their propaganda.

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Just remember...

"He who lies with dogs, often has puppies"...

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quote:

---

Originally posted by Oak Ridge
Hold the phone.

The PAWS proposal is real, it's not going to go away.
clipped
What really matters is this. At the end of the day we are all coon hunters. We all have jobs and families, and the one thing that we all have in common is our love of hounds and hunting with our dogs.

What we are doing now is causing a huge division amongst our own kind. clipped
Most certainly at some point in the future our right to enjoy our sport is going to come under fire, and if we are all setting in different camps, aligned with different kennel clubs that can't seem to agree on anything because they are in direct competition with each other, where will that leave us?

If you are opposed to the legislation, attacking people who see things differently than you do will do nothing other than tear us apart, leaving us vunerable to those that would strip us of our rights. clipped

Am I driving a wedge between myself and someone that may be called on to support my sport and my rights to enjoy hounds and hunting with hounds in the future? Am I opposing a piece of legislation, or am I opposing an organization or individual? Remember, there are lots of folks that read this board and monitor it every day......

Folks like it or not...even if this legislation is defeated by our efforts, we are losing the over all battle. One of the most basic warfare strategies is "divide and conquor"........

---

Last edited by Bob Kane on 08-10-2005 at 06:15 PM

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It's bad mojo to think that just because someone owns dogs that they are my allie .....those lap dog breed clubs opposing this bill are the ones that cause us so much grief because of their over-breeding practices that put so many dogs in the shelters and in the eyes of folks who push the spay/neuter crud .

Who here wouldn't like to see an end to the fifty ads per week for pitbulls , yorkies and snicker-doodles in the Sunday papers ?

For that matter .... how many entire litters of hounds end up in hunting hands and get a chance ??

The question about chains/dog houses for breeding dogs is a good one ...... a litter of pups should never be born or whelped on the dirt and especially not with the mother on a chain .... if you get in trouble for that then so be it .....

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I want to thank UKC for standing up and letting this post stay on...Guys are saying this Paws bill is causeing hound owners to go against each other..(I think just the opposite is true)....I think more groups are getting together against Paws ...What we need is to all band together and start a national organization to Fight Bills like Paws...........I think this is just the beginning....That GOD for the NRA... If it was not for the NRA standing up for our rights..All my guns would be buried on my farm somewhere.......Look what happened over in England they can't Fox hunt anymore.............And thats a Fact...............................

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quote:

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Originally posted by Oak Ridge

Folks like it or not...even if this legislation is defeated by our efforts, we are losing the over all battle. One of the most basic warfare strategies is "divide and conquor"........

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Location: Indiana
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quote:

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Originally posted by Hiphop
The division doesn't appear to equal, besides it looks to me like more of a weeding out. Oakridge, can you give me three reasons to support this bill?

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Please answer me this one question...

Do you own a coonhound?

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