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Daniel Evans
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Dec 2007
Location: Dallas, NC
Posts: 1111

Too close?

Can you breed 2 dogs with the same topside but different bottom side or is this too close???

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06-01-2010 01:16 AM

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kycooner1
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Sep 2007
Location: Raywick Ky
Posts: 1460

Half brother and sister, people do it quite often..Like anytime you breed ,its a chance. They can be real good or real bad.

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06-01-2010 01:18 AM

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Daniel Evans
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Dec 2007
Location: Dallas, NC
Posts: 1111

Btt

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06-01-2010 08:47 PM

Bluedogman
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Jun 2003
Location: Lumpkin, Ga
Posts: 8757

Too close? What's that?

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06-01-2010 09:19 PM

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Christy
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Jun 2003
Location: Sylva, North Carolina (the far Western Tip of the State)
Posts: 10272

WE BRED 2 DOGS ONE TIME.

BOTH OF THEM WERE DIRECTLY OUT OF ROCK RIVER FRANK. THERE WERE 8 PUPS THAT LIVED. 6 MADE ABOVE AVERAGE DOGS, 1 MADE A DECENT DOG AND THE OTHER WAS CULLED AT 1 YEAR OLD.

OUR DOUBLE SACKETT BULL WAS FROM THAT LITTER, AND THAT IS THE CROSS THAT SECURED OUR BELIEFE IN THE SACKETT JR LINE.

WILL NEVER REGRET IT!

WHAT YOU GOT COOKIN IN YOUR MIND THERE? LOL.

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06-01-2010 09:38 PM

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Daniel Evans
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Dec 2007
Location: Dallas, NC
Posts: 1111

thinking about getting a female pup, off sid and a diff. female from my Rage pup and breeding them. (when they both prove themselves to be coonhounds) Some maythink its too much sackett, but I'm not sure if you can get too much sackett. GO TEAM SID!!

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06-02-2010 01:55 AM

Lee Currens Jr.
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Registered: Apr 2006
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quote:
Originally posted by Christy
WE BRED 2 DOGS ONE TIME.

BOTH OF THEM WERE DIRECTLY OUT OF ROCK RIVER FRANK. THERE WERE 8 PUPS THAT LIVED. 6 MADE ABOVE AVERAGE DOGS, 1 MADE A DECENT DOG AND THE OTHER WAS CULLED AT 1 YEAR OLD.

OUR DOUBLE SACKETT BULL WAS FROM THAT LITTER, AND THAT IS THE CROSS THAT SECURED OUR BELIEFE IN THE SACKETT JR LINE.

WILL NEVER REGRET IT!

WHAT YOU GOT COOKIN IN YOUR MIND THERE? LOL.

i thought you had to have 2 to bred?

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06-02-2010 02:06 AM

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Daniel Evans
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Dec 2007
Location: Dallas, NC
Posts: 1111

quote:
Originally posted by blueticking: it
i thought you had to have 2 to bred?

???

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06-02-2010 04:23 AM

Larry Atherton
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Jun 2003
Location: Central Michigan
Posts: 6544

Too close?????

We see this question quite a bit. What is too close? If you know your dogs and a good family history, then the answer to that question becomes much easier. In fact, I would bet ya already know the answer.

If you don't know the family history and ya have to ask this question, then it probably isn't a good idea.

Guys and gals, knowing a dog's family history is one of the most important things ya can do to become better breeders. Sure ya might have to make some phone calls, start up the ole pickup truck, pull up a chair and your favorite soda, or slide on a pair of boots and put on a light, but isn't that part of the fun?

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06-02-2010 03:10 PM

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JiM
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I'll tell yah Larry, when it comes to the subject of breeding, I place an extremely high value on your opinions. But I believe at best maybe 10% of the breedings out there will have followed your logic. The other 90% fall onto maybe 3 catagories. The guys that are breeding best to best, the guys that are just taking a shot in the dark, and the ones that are taking no shot at all, they just wanna raise a litter that can be registered.
Over the last 15 years I have raised a ton of pups that came from breedings that purty well cover all 3 catagories plus a few off crosses useing your logic and the conclusion that I have come to is that the good ones only come from the sifting through of a lot of bad ones. The next World Champion will likely come from the same place most World Champs have come from, a cross that the breeder had high hopes for but no realistic expectations of ever producing a World Champ.

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06-02-2010 03:57 PM

Christy
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Registered: Jun 2003
Location: Sylva, North Carolina (the far Western Tip of the State)
Posts: 10272

quote:
Originally posted by JiM
I'll tell yah Larry, when it comes to the subject of breeding, I place an extremely high value on your opinions. But I believe at best maybe 10% of the breedings out there will have followed your logic. The other 90% fall onto maybe 3 catagories. The guys that are breeding best to best, the guys that are just taking a shot in the dark, and the ones that are taking no shot at all, they just wanna raise a litter that can be registered.
Over the last 15 years I have raised a ton of pups that came from breedings that purty well cover all 3 catagories plus a few off crosses useing your logic and the conclusion that I have come to is that the good ones only come from the sifting through of a lot of bad ones. The next World Champion will likely come from the same place most World Champs have come from, a cross that the breeder had high hopes for but no realistic expectations of ever producing a World Champ.

SO WHAT YOU'RE SAYING IS OUR NEXT CROSS SHOULD BE ONE WITH INTENTIONS OF NOT PRODUCING ANYTHING AND WE WILL GET A WORLD CHAMP? CAN I GET THAT IN WRITING PLEASE?

I'M JUST KIDDING BY THE WAY! LOL.

IN MY OPINION IT'S ALL A SHOT IN THE DARK UNLESS IT'S A REPEAT PROVEN CROSS.

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06-02-2010 04:17 PM

Larry Atherton
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Jun 2003
Location: Central Michigan
Posts: 6544

Jim,

In the simpliest terms, all I am talking about is doing a little more work to potentially increase our benefits.

Notice the qualifier "potentially"?LOL

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06-02-2010 04:18 PM

Larry Atherton
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Registered: Jun 2003
Location: Central Michigan
Posts: 6544

quote:
Originally posted by Christy

IN MY OPINION IT'S ALL A SHOT IN THE DARK UNLESS IT'S A REPEAT PROVEN CROSS.

Christy,

I have seen several repeat proven crosses not produce. So that isn't even a given. Push comes to shove hard work making our breeding choices followed by hard work hunting those pups helps increase our chances.

I really hate the phrase "a shot in the dark" to me that is no more than an excuse to be lazy. If it was easy, it would not be so rewarding.

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06-02-2010 04:26 PM

Christy
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Registered: Jun 2003
Location: Sylva, North Carolina (the far Western Tip of the State)
Posts: 10272

quote:
Originally posted by Larry Atherton
Christy,

I have seen several repeat proven crosses not produce. So that isn't even a given. Push comes to shove hard work making our breeding choices followed by hard work hunting those pups helps increase our chances.

I really hate the phrase "a shot in the dark" to me that is no more than an excuse to be lazy. If it was easy, it would not be so rewarding.

I CAN ASSURE YOU SIR, WHEN IT COMES TO OUR DOGS WE ARE NOT LAZY IN ANY PHRASE OF THE WORD.

BUT, WHEN YOU HAVE LUCK WITH A LINE LIKE WE ARE HAVING RIGHT NOW, IT IS EASY AND REWARDING.

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06-02-2010 04:45 PM

Ron Ashbaugh
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Dec 2003
Location: Mercer PA
Posts: 4837

quote:
Originally posted by JiM
I'll tell yah Larry, when it comes to the subject of breeding, I place an extremely high value on your opinions. But I believe at best maybe 10% of the breedings out there will have followed your logic. The other 90% fall onto maybe 3 catagories. The guys that are breeding best to best, the guys that are just taking a shot in the dark, and the ones that are taking no shot at all, they just wanna raise a litter that can be registered.
Over the last 15 years I have raised a ton of pups that came from breedings that purty well cover all 3 catagories plus a few off crosses useing your logic and the conclusion that I have come to is that the good ones only come from the sifting through of a lot of bad ones. The next World Champion will likely come from the same place most World Champs have come from, a cross that the breeder had high hopes for but no realistic expectations of ever producing a World Champ.

I agree with Jim 100%. Most of the time when I get a pup the pedigree helps me with three things.
#1. It motivates me if I know what is behind the dog
#2. If by some off chance the dog turns out I want to put my work and time with a dog with a decent backgroud so that it has a better chance to reproduce
#3. I have an idea of what to expect because I have hunted with similar bred dogs and like the way they operate.

As far as breeding for a world champion they come from anywhere and everywhere it seems. Your best bet for getting a dog to go from a puppy to a dog you like comes from, like jim said, going through them.

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06-02-2010 05:02 PM

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Christy
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Jun 2003
Location: Sylva, North Carolina (the far Western Tip of the State)
Posts: 10272

YEP. EVEN THOUGH YOU CAN USE PEDIGREES SOMEWHAT AS BREEDING TOOLS, UNTIL IT'S GROWN AND FINISHED YOU NEVER REALLY KNOW WHAT YOU WILL END UP WITH.

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06-02-2010 05:10 PM

Larry Atherton
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Jun 2003
Location: Central Michigan
Posts: 6544

quote:
Originally posted by Christy
I CAN ASSURE YOU SIR, WHEN IT COMES TO OUR DOGS WE ARE NOT LAZY IN ANY PHRASE OF THE WORD.

I do not and never intend to write or say anything with an implied meaning.

I am a simple guy if I was going to say you and Quincy were lazy I would just say it. That wasn't the intention of my post. My intention was to say I don't like the saying it is a shot in the dark period. It gives too many people an easy excuse.

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06-02-2010 05:11 PM

Larry Atherton
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Location: Central Michigan
Posts: 6544

Using a pedigree as the only selection tool has been proven to only provide 5-8% success rate in working dogs.

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06-02-2010 05:14 PM

Christy
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Registered: Jun 2003
Location: Sylva, North Carolina (the far Western Tip of the State)
Posts: 10272

IT'S GOOD. I'M JUST MAKING SURE YOU KNEW IT. LOL. AND I DO SEE WHAT YOU ARE SAYING.

OUR BEST CROSSES HAVE BEEN LINE BRED CROSSES SIMILAR TO THE ONE HE'S CONSIDERING MAKING WAY DOWN THE ROAD.

I WOULD NOT BE SCARED TO SAY A CROSS SIMILAR TO THE ONE HE'S THINKING ABOUT MAKING COULD BE IN THE WORKS RIGHT NOW. SO WE MAY HAVE SOME INSIGHT TO OFFER HIM IF WE DO MAKE THE CROSS.

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06-02-2010 05:17 PM

Autumn Clements
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Jun 2005
Location: Prince Edward Island,Canada
Posts: 4589

Anybody make a cross like this before or had any experience with a cross like this ..

example

----Bingo
--Dancer
----Mae Belle
SIRE
----Rambo II
--Spice
----Sugar

----Dancer
--Son
----Hanna
DAM
----Rambo II
--Spice
----Sugar

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'PR'LEAD'S MIDNITE SASSY
CFC CH Canadian GCH Multi Group Placing MBPIG BBPIG LEGACYK STANNYFIELD PRIME TIME (AKC & UKC Pointed)
BPIG MBBPIG WINDAMIRS RED LIGHT DISTRICT V AMBERLANE
LEGACYK DARE TO DREAM V CBLUES
LEGACYK WHITE AS A GHOST V CBLUES

Gone but not forgotten
GRNITECH GRCH PKC CH'PR'CLEMENTS' BLUE PRANCER
GRNITECH GRCH'PR'SPIKE'S TWILITE HOOKER
'PR'PRANCER'S GETTIN DOWN N DIRTY (PrancerxHooker)
NITECH CH�PR�BUELL�S BLUE ROCKY(Whitey x Spice)
CKC BBPIG MARIES BABY BREEZE

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06-02-2010 05:42 PM

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MRC
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Registered: Aug 2006
Location: SC
Posts: 699

I'm very interested in hearing the answer to that one Autumn.... I've considered/am considering it.....

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06-02-2010 05:46 PM

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Christy
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Registered: Jun 2003
Location: Sylva, North Carolina (the far Western Tip of the State)
Posts: 10272

HERE'S A FEW CROSSES WE ARE CONSIDERING: (WAY DOWN THE ROAD WHEN THE DOGS ARE GROWN AND PROVEN, WE ARE ALWAYS LOOKING TO SEE WHAT COULD BE IN THE FUTURE)

---SID
HERCULES
---ANN

PUPPY

---SID
SHINE
---SKEETER

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

---NITRO
SID
---RACHEL

PUPPY

---HERCULES
VELVET
---MAGGIE

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

---SID
SID JR
---SKEETER

PUPPY

---HERCULES
VELVET
---MAGGIE

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

---SID
RED
---SUSIE

PUPPY

---HERCULES
VELVET
---MAGGIE

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

---SID
RED
---SUSIE

PUPPY

---SID
SHINE
---SKEETER

WE HAVE ENOUGH OF OUR BLOOD SPREAD OUT WITH DIFFERENT CROSSES TO WHERE WE CAN LOOK AND SEE WHICH DOGS SUITS THE OTHERS AND KEEP MAKING LINE BRED CROSSES.

ACTUALLY, THERE ARE TO MANY POSSIBILITIES TO LIST THEM ALL, BECAUSE THERE ARE MORE OFFSPRING OUT THERE OUT OF SID AND DIFFERENT FEMALES WE CAN CROSS ON AS WELL.

AND WE ARE ALSO CONSIDERING CROSSING SKEETER WITH HERCULES THIS YEAR AND FIGURING THAT INTO THE EQUATION AS WELL.

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06-02-2010 06:02 PM

Autumn Clements
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Jun 2005
Location: Prince Edward Island,Canada
Posts: 4589

Another example.....

of those crosses half sis/bro to similar on the other side as well
----Mr. Blue
--Spike
----Kelly
SIRE
----Hillbilly
--Ivy
----Cort

----Mr. Blue
--Spike
----Kelly
DAM
----Gunny
--Honey
----Cort

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06-02-2010 06:27 PM

Autumn Clements
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Jun 2005
Location: Prince Edward Island,Canada
Posts: 4589

quote:
Originally posted by MRC
I'm very interested in hearing the answer to that one Autumn.... I've considered/am considering it.....

yeah I am too, something i've thought about for a long time ...
Added another cross that is along the same line as the one listed above..

If someones made a cross with top & bottom consiting some of the same blood, give us the cross and let us know how it went.

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06-02-2010 06:33 PM

glynnsdawgs63
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Jan 2009
Location: Fort Valley, GA
Posts: 1194

My dogs are inbred and linebred .I have produced some really good bear and coon dogs in my program.I use pedigree as a tool but as far as making actual crosses the parents must have proved themselves in the woods before I will make a cross.You can look at the pedigrees on my dogs at my website www.tellsblueticks.webs.com as i don't want to take up space to type them again.Make your cross if it works do it again,if it don't work don't do it again.

Glynn

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06-02-2010 06:38 PM