Registered: May 2006
Location: Indiana
Posts: 162

Ok here it is. i will try to make it as easily understandable as possible. 3 dog cast
Dogs are all stuck. Dog a has 25, b has 25, c has 25( recasted dogs some of them)

Dog A is decladed tree about 250 yards in straight ahead. Dog B comes treed and is declared tree right in the same "direction" Question is asked to the judge. "split tree or same tree" judge says lets get closer because dog B is a LOUD dog and A has a medium mouth and he is not for sure yet. we get about 100 hundred yards straight in to "both" a and B and stopped. ALl is heard is the loud Dog B. 2 is put on A. 2 goes up without hearing dog A. Judge says "minus dog A for leaving tree, Dog B must have jacked the tree coming into her and made her leave?( judge knows dog B jacks the tree) we get to dog B and score it. WHile we are scoring it. we hear dog A treeing in the woods about 75 yards. In a straight line from we first dog A and B were declared tree. Judge says well now wait, i think dog B just drowned out A and earse that minus and we will score it(ended up being a circle) so instead of minus 125, he got circle 125.
Keep in mind as this may sway how its answered
1- it was a straight line in from when we declared treed and dog a and dog b were
2- judge had put on the card -125 for leaving tree/2 is up on tree without hearing dog. then changed it to circle(no coon seen) once we got closer to tree Dog B was on.
3- Dog C never really did anything just opened up once and was trailing in the distance.
hope it isnt confusing.. just wanna know what ya'll think. this did not affect the end hunt result of the cast in anyway.

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Registered: Jun 2003
Location: Los Angeles, MN
Posts: 4236

Once the -125 was on the card it should have stayed there.

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Piss poor judgeing.
The rulebook states that the judge should not card a dog as split treed unless the split is obvious. In this case, it was not obvious because the judge admitted he wasn't sure if the dogs were together or not. If not sure, you card them as being together. Then when you get to the tree, if one dog is deeper you move it up to 125 at that point. But Josh is right, once the dog is minused, it stays minused until the MOH changes it.

Last edited by on 05-16-2010 at 09:33 PM

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Registered: Aug 2008
Location: SE Ohio, Glouster
Posts: 2244

I agree with Jim. The judge made a crucial mistake of not making his decision (split vs not split) from where the original call was made. If the jusge couldn't tell that the dogs were split from the point at which the original tree call was made, he then really had no choice but to leave dog B treed in for second at 75. Walking toward the dogs before making a decision was not fair to anybody.

If the judge had done this, the two minute rule would not have come into play on dog A, and you would have scored the dogs according to the way you found them, when you did get close enough to determine split vs treed together.

This could have been easily scored if the Judge would have made the tough call at the point where the call was made and then stick to his decision.

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Yep, you explained it alot better than I did.

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If you couldn't hear the dog bark for 2 minutes it should be minused. Seriously you heard both of them tree at 250 yards. Why wouldn't you be able to hear them at a closer distance? Common sense answers the question on minus. You heard both dogs well enough to wonder if they were together or split, and then you didn't hear the dog for a period of over 2 minutes. The dog is minused.
You never have to declare your dog split in this situation either, you will find out when you get there if they are together or not.

Sounds to me like the judge needs to stick to reading the back of the card rather than analyzing the traits of the dogs. The rules are there, and there was a lot of opinion BS going on in this cast rather than following the rules.

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Registered: Jun 2008
Location: Taylorsville, NC
Posts: 1320

Dog B was holding the tree open. Just like strike points, as long as one dog declared treed is barking atleast once every two minutes you can't minus one dog if you can't tell for sure if they are split or not. The judge was unsure of a split and had to assume both dogs were on the same tree. For that reason he could not run the two on one dog since he had not decided if they were split or not. The judge messed up and awarded the wrong points. After he awarded the points he should have left it alone until he returned to the MOH and told him about his error in judgment. Really nothing hard about this.

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Brian Teague 252-649-3050

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Registered: Jun 2008
Location: Taylorsville, NC
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quote:

---

Originally posted by Tully
If you couldn't hear the dog bark for 2 minutes it should be minused. Seriously you heard both of them tree at 250 yards. Why wouldn't you be able to hear them at a closer distance? Common sense answers the question on minus. You heard both dogs well enough to wonder if they were together or split, and then you didn't hear the dog for a period of over 2 minutes. The dog is minused.
You never have to declare your dog split in this situation either, you will find out when you get there if they are together or not.

---

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Brian Teague 252-649-3050

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Registered: Oct 2006
Location: Iowa
Posts: 1014

My ? is why was the dog minused if both dogs weren't declared split in the first place and the cast wasn't sure and why was the 2 put on dog A if both were declared treed and one was clearly heard treeing but you still couldn't tell if they were split. Far as the hearing thing goes i've been enough hunts to know that just because you can hear them both good in 1 spot doesn't mean you can hear them good in another one might sound real good closer while other may have been split the whole time but you could here him better cause where he is and where you were further back. How times have you been judging a hunt and you swear both dogs are right there together and when you walk in there might be another dog 20 or 30 back in straight line split but you can hear him better than the rest just cause his voice carries better or louder hound.

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Registered: Oct 2006
Location: Iowa
Posts: 1014

LOL i didn't want to rip on Tully guys cause i hunt with him but you guys are right. That was my point exactly the dog should never been minused till you got there or figured out if they were split to begin with. I know i would been ? this call either way LOL. But hey i just go out to have fun.

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Jason Davis
641 751 7545
Home of the Iowa River Blueticks
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Registered: Mar 2009
Location: s.c.
Posts: 6961

I have a dog that in his younger years would do that and drive me crazy. He would run and find THE tree then move on a hundred yards and plant the other dogs on a (any) tree. Then, when he'd see the lights coming he'd quiet down or back off till you got to the tree and then you'd hear him treeing. On the real tree (where I'd find a coon). He was a loud dog and sometimes the other dogs would pull just before they could get snapped up "handled" . He was a trip in his day. I used him to train alot of pups though. He ruined some. But the rest learned they better smell for themselves.

If it was a plus tree it would sound like that's what B was doing that night.

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Everyone seems to be missing something here. The judge does not have to make it all the way to the tree do declare them split even if he couldn't tell from where he was previously. It sounds like the judge got closer and decided they were split and started the two and he was correct. The poor judging comes in to play because he reversed his decision after making a call.

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quote:

---

Originally posted by jason2579
LOL i didn't want to rip on Tully guys cause i hunt with him but you guys are right. That was my point exactly the dog should never been minused till you got there or figured out if they were split to begin with. I know i would been ? this call either way LOL. But hey i just go out to have fun.

---

Why hold back now? You would any other time LOL!

I didn't realize another dog could hold your tree open. Guess as far as that goes I expect my dogs to do what's necessary to hold a tree open by themselves. Believe it or not if my dog went quiet on tree, whether declared split or not, I'd have probably told the judge to start the 2 on my own dog, and I doubt 95% of casts would tell me they can't start the 2 unless the dogs are declared split.
I'm my dogs biggest critic, and nobody's going to run back to the club saying I weaseled a win under my dog.

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Registered: Oct 2006
Location: Iowa
Posts: 1014

Number 1 a good judge would not start the 2 a honest cast would not start the 2. That's the problem with people that haven't done it long enough and read the rule book and THINK they know all the answers but only been comp hunting for short time and haven't seen enough situation occur to apply the rules to them. Believe me there's always going to be hunt that leaves even some of the most experience standing their scratching their head sometimes. I know their are some rules that seem to contradict some others on the back of that card all depends on how a judge or majority of cast apply those rules to the situation at hand. So i guess yes if i was on your cast Tully and you wanted to be dumb enough to put the 2 on your dog i'd look at the rest of the cast and say fine by me. And if your dog was there when we got there Boy oh boy! I sure hope we saw a coon and then watch the minus points add up.

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Jason Davis
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Home of the Iowa River Blueticks
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Hitting the comp hunts 2015

"Whatever works for you"

Last edited by jason2579 on 05-17-2010 at 05:39 PM

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Registered: Oct 2006
Location: Iowa
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Joey your correct on the part where a judge doesn't have to make it all the way in to declare the dogs split. That's not the case here. Re read the statement he made. The judge assumed that dog A left the tree cause dog B was jacking it probably. The 2 never should of been applied at all. It's one of those did dog A leave the tree and gets minus or can't just hear her over dog b or are they split or not. The two should not come in effect here at all unless both dogs that were declared treed shut up.

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Jason Davis
641 751 7545
Home of the Iowa River Blueticks
NT CH Bullets Iowa River Squirt
Five star state hunt championship 2nd place
Five star qualifier 1st place win.
Bbcha sectional high scoring male
World hunt qualified 2009
9th place open bluetick reunion
Davis's Iowa River Striker ( Squirt X J and N's Blue Night Sky)

BnJs Sugar Babe.
Hitting the comp hunts 2015

"Whatever works for you"

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