Registered: Jun 2003
Location: Beaver Springs, Pennsylvania
Posts: 3316

Here is a situation that happened on Saturday night during a nite hunt, opinions please.

Zam and a female Redbone were treed, waited the 5 for the other dog to go in and he wouldn't leave their feet. So they were walking into the tree, the Redbone left and came back to the owner, Zam was holding the tree. Dog 3, suddenly leaves their feet and goes in and jumps on Zam, Zam turned around and lit into him, then went back to treeing. Frank scratched Zam for agression and asked the owner of dog 3 if he wanted him wrote up for fighting, to which he replied 'No, this guy (owner of dog 2) said he never seen him do that before in his life!' So Frank kenneled Zam and finished out the hunt, dog 2 would run a track, but never treed again and dog 3 never left their feet again.

So last night I took him out with 3 other males and a female dog. Zam and the other dogs treed 2 times and never a growl or any fighting what so ever. He hadn't hunted with these dogs before, so I found it odd that he didn't display any agression to the other 3 males and even acted disinterested when 2 of the other males got into it on lead. Both times we got into the tree the dogs were all jumping up and down and landing on each other and there was no fighting, not even a growl.

My question is...What the heck made him do that in the nite hunt? Frank said that dog 3 just went into Zam and jumped onto him and Zam spun around and floored him and went right back to treeing. Dog 3 was a 2 1/2 yr. old male, dog 2 was a 6 yr. old female and Zam is a 7 yr. old male, who hunts with other males with no problems and has never been aggressive to any other dog before.

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Judge scraches a dog for fighting and then ASKS if someone wants the dog wrote up??? Now that's a new twist.......

Your dog was scratched for fighting, your dog should have been wrote up for it.

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Registered: Jun 2003
Location: Oklahoma
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He's been aggressive before , just nobody noticed the signs ... you gotta cut it off before it starts ... eyeballing , stiff legging , pee-ing on bushes and just anything that suggests a dog is thinking about how he stacks up.

Dogs speak dog ... their body language in itself has meaning .. obviously , those two dogs were saying something to each other that the humans didn't hear .

If your dog doesn't know he's the very bottom on any peck order on Earth ... he will eventually get into trouble .

A well mannered dog isn't a creation of nature or chance ...it's a creation of hard work and consistantly keeping them in check.

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Registered: May 2009
Location: Tonkawa Oklahoma
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I would guess dog three was protective of the handler. Zam just protected himself and went back to treeing. I don't see a problem with Zam at all. Just hope he doesn't have to protect himself much or he will get mean..............
I would say he done just what I would want mine to do. If attacked, defend themself and when the dog backs off, go back to work. He only done what he had to do and no more.

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Registered: Jun 2003
Location: Los Angeles, MN
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Yup, and evryone has a dog that wont start anything but will darn sure finnish it.

The rules are clear on what to do with this situation, unfortunately they werent followed.

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Registered: Dec 2007
Location: Marion Co Wv
Posts: 124

We have a male that will get aggresive at the tree with one male and not others.. Dont know what started it other then the time it started was at a nite hunt. He hasnt been the same since.. These 2 dogs hunted together for months no trouble.. Hes been stomped over it switched and seems to be doing better. We hunt him with his Half sister all the time and never have a problem.. Ive heard a lot of reasons from breed ( not sure I believe this one) to Sire and Dam line etc.. If you figure it out let me know.. We will keep working on it . even though of just getting him fixed and see if that helps.. No interest in breeding him really so wouldnt hurt anything.

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Registered: Jun 2003
Location: Beaver Springs, Pennsylvania
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He has been hunted hundreds of times and NEVER displayed any type of agression before. If peeing on the weeds and bushes is agression, then all male dogs needs to be scratched for it, cause I see it ALL the time and it has never led to anything except hunting. I have seen the bowing up and the stiff legged walk and hackles raised, but never from him. I saw it last night between the 2 dogs that got into it on the lead and Zam wasn't bowed up, stiff legged or hackles raised, he just went on about his business and ignored him. I think that dog 3 should of also been scratched, #1 jumping on another dog is agression and #2, not hunting is another one. The Redbone wasn't protecting her owner, she just does that, trees and then leaves, why, I don't know. She had left the tree as soon as the lights came into the tree and went to hunting else where.

Frank was willing to write it up, but the 3rd guy in the cast said both dogs needed wrote up, a dog can't fight with it's self. The owner of Dog 3 said No and that was the end of it. I'll tell you one thing, if I was doing my job and something or someone jumped on my back, I'd go into protection mode too. A dog that wanted to fight would have kept on fighting, not let the dog go and go back to treeing, then ignore dog 3 treeing beside him after the rumble.

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Registered: Jul 2008
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Why wasn't Dog 3 scratched? An adult dog "jumping" onto another adult male dog at a tree, sounds like aggressive behavior to me and also a recipe for disaster! You should have made it a one dog cast!

Every dog is a gem....just ask the owner...."he never fights, nicest dog you'll ever see!"

Every dog has it in them, it just depends on the circumstances.

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Registered: Jun 2003
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My thoughts are...if this is going to happen in a nite hunt, but not pleasure hunting, then pleasure hunting is all we are going to do. It's not worth the aggravation to have this happen for just a piece of paper that says he can tree a coon, when we already know he can do it and do it well. After talking to a number of other people that hunted with dog 3, this seems to be a pattern for him. One day he is gonna tangle with a dog that won't back down, and get chewed up bad for it, but you can be sure, it ain't gonna be Zam that does it. He is done with the nite hunts, it just ain't worth it. I don't want a dog that as of now hunts good with other male dogs, get turned into one that doesn't.

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Registered: Jun 2003
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quote:

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Originally posted by nhcooner2
Why wasn't Dog 3 scratched? An adult dog "jumping" onto another adult male dog at a tree, sounds like aggressive behavior to me and also a recipe for disaster! You should have made it a one dog cast!

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In this case if they all saw it as it was stated they scratched the wrong dog. Any such situtation I let my dog know thats not what they're supposed to do but if dog 3 run up and jumped him that makes dog 3 the agressor.

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Registered: Jun 2003
Location: Beaver Springs, Pennsylvania
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Dale, I didn't think of it that way before, but you know, that would make sense. Not defending my dog, he did turn around and flop him, but yes, there wouldn't have been a problem if dog 3 hadn't jump on him.

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If I had a 7 year old dog that got in a scrap for the first time, I wouldn't be too worked up about it. I wouldn't quit hunting him and I wouldn't quit putting him in nite hunts because of it. Not for one time in 7 years.
You can't explain or figure out everything a dog does. Or people either for that matter. But one thing is for certain, anytime a dog is scratched for fighting, that dog must be written up for it. No excuses, no explainations. Any judge that SFF's a dog without writing it up should not be judgeing.

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quote:

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Originally posted by JiM
If I had a 7 year old dog that got in a scrap for the first time, I wouldn't be too worked up about it. I wouldn't quit hunting him and I wouldn't quit putting him in nite hunts because of it. Not for one time in 7 years.
You can't explain or figure out everything a dog does. Or people either for that matter. But one thing is for certain, anytime a dog is scratched for fighting, that dog must be written up for it. No excuses, no explainations. Any judge that SFF's a dog without writing it up should not be judgeing.

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The other guys dog jumped on him? Well the other guys dog should have been scratched too. I had a dog like that he'd only fight if bitten into. Sounds like your dog was defending himself the judge was probably bein smart when he asked the other guy if he wanted him to be written up. Did they actually see him jump on him?

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Registered: Aug 2008
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quote:

---

Originally posted by Dale Young
In this case if they all saw it as it was stated they scratched the wrong dog. Any such situtation I let my dog know thats not what they're supposed to do but if dog 3 run up and jumped him that makes dog 3 the agressor.

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Registered: Jun 2003
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Yes, they all watched dog 3 jump on Zam. Frank was the judge as well as the guide and No, he didn't scratch him, but he withdrew him, whatever that means. The guy that had dog 2 told him not to withdraw him, but Frank did anyway and dog 3 never left their feet the rest of the hunt. The tree was closed when they walked into it and dog 3 took off and jumped on Zam, who then flopped him and went back to treeing.

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you are not to withdraw a dog to keep from being scratched for fighting.if dog 3 jumped on him then dog 3 is scratched noone else, but i wonder why dog 2 quit treeing and came to owner?????????????

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Registered: Jun 2003
Location: Morrison TN
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Are you meaning "jumped on him" as in jumped on him fighting/biting or are you meaning "jumped on him" as in jumped up the tree and landed on him?

Big difference between the two.

One is agressive behavior the other is not.

If the first dog just landed on Zam then the correct dog was scratched.

If the first dog came in and started fighting Zam then the wrong dog was scratched.

Landing on a dog is not agressive behavior.

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A judge that I beleive I also see you say before also is a moh that don't scratch a dog for fighting? and you all are some thats against mean dogs going by some of your post before? not much of a judge to ask if someone wants a dog to be scratched for fighting and don't just do it like going by rules it should have been done. so much for doing his part to help get mean dogs out of the hunts.


me personally I could care less about mean dogs.just seems odd to me some people talk one thing then look the other way when it times to do what they always say should be done.

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i'm reading this wrong or missing something but if the cast is at the tree watching a dog tree and another dog comes in and jumps on the dog treeing for no reason only that dog would be scratched even if there is a fight you scratch the one that started it is what i always thought. I have been wrong before though.

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Dog 2 always leaves the tree anymore, that is just how she is. When I say jumped on him, I'm saying left their feet, went in, jumped on Zam's back and got flopped and then started treeing beside him. Tree was closed, so he wouldn't have gained anything by it anyway. I watch 2 male dogs tap dance on him last night and he didn't even act like it bothered him. These same 2 dogs later had a rumble on the lead and Zam ignored them. I'm not sure what Frank was thinking, I think he just didn't really want to hunt and that was an easy way out for him. You have to know Frank to understand what I'm talking about. As a MOH, yes he should of done the right thing, which I seem to be getting that both dogs should have been wrote up. If this is the only time it is ever going to happen, what did it hurt, if Zam never did it again. As I stated earlier, it ain't worth the aggravation and nite hunting is out for Zam from now on. He is one hell of a coondog and doesn't need that crap. Heck, I hunt him more then Frank does, so I know him better then Frank. I have watched both male and female dogs jockey for position on him and around him and have NEVER seen or heard him blow up and he has hunted with known aggressive dogs and there has never been a problem from him. Maybe a flunk thing, but not worth turning him mean or getting him chewed up over that GRNITECH title for.

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Sorry but from what you just said, the dog just landed on Zam, that's not agression per UKC rules.

Zam would have been the only dog written up because he would have been considered the agressor.

If a dog is jumping the tree and lands on another dog, as you described, then if the dog he landed on bites him the dog he landed on is considered the agressor and is the only one scratched.

If the other dog had just ran in and tackled Zam/attacked him then Zam should not have been scratched because he would have been just defending himself and the other dog would have been considered the agressor.

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Registered: Mar 2009
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Even if the Zam dog was just defending himself both dogs should have been scratched. If the one dog was being aggressive when jumping on him and then Zam for fighting back. I have seen dogs that have been attacked first but because they fought back were scratched because it takes 2 to fight. So in my opionion Zam should have been scratched and if the other dog jumped on him in a mean manner not just going in to the tree and accidently landed on him he should have been scracted as well. Our dog got scratched in the Zones 2 years ago because a dog was growling and trying to bite him and our male was litterally backing away towards the people in the cast but he was showing his teeth to the other dog. Litterally just showing his teeth not even growling but it was concidered aggressive behavior and both dogs got scratched. So if the he was just defending himself thing worked to keep a dog from getting scratched then ours would have been fine. But that isn't how the rules work so we took our scratch as much as it stunk and went home. We still hunt him, he is not perfect, but we know he doesn't start fights or try to be mean to other dogs. But sometimes things happen it is part of the sport as much as I wish it didn't.

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Registered: Aug 2008
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i dont see how it be his fault ....... if you was workin an sombody else run in an jumped on you ... would you go back to work with out doin anyuthing?? ...... no an dnt say its dogs not people an its a hunt etc... who cares same concept......

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