Registered: Feb 2010
Location: off the res.
Posts: 3422

Why is it most people only loose a cast when they get cheated? Most is because they don't know the rules. Example (a handler came in after a hunt and was telling everyone that "he was cheated" because the dogs were running a track, all were open including his, his dog came into the cast the judge told him he was minusing the dog. Handler reached down and snapped a leash on the dog, judge scratched him. Handler got upset and wanted to know why the judge scratched him. When the judge told him why, the handler said since he was minused he thought he could. He didn't know that there was a rule like that. This is just one example there are many more I could post. I know there is more cheating but many times it's not knowing the rules. I do know if you put a question mark on the card it will stop lots of the cheating. I hear many people say "I don't want to be known as a cry baby or a trouble maker so I don't say anything." Something to think about, if you are on a cast and you think some is cheating question it, if you don't you become part of the cheating.

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Registered: Jul 2006
Location: Carrollton,Missouri
Posts: 947

Some people cant take minus points. If you say you have to minus them they think you cheated them. I put the 2 on a dog one night and they said "He chews some" I told him hes got 2 minutes to bark. He thought a chewing dog should get a pass I guess. Theres a guy that hunts around here that if he loses I guarantee he will say he got cheated. Your right he doesn't know the rules. Ive never been cheated or have cheated anybody. Go by the rules and there shouldn't be any questions.

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Registered: Dec 2003
Location: cincinnati, ohio
Posts: 745

wakenda creek,

Just make sure you use that watch on your dog, the same you use it on mine

I've had to call people out in the past for putting the 2min on mine right after the last bark, while giving there's a 45 second window or so.

If your going to put the 2min on your dog 45 seconds after his last bark, I expect the same consistency with mine.

Same goes for the 8min rule. If I'm carrying 1st strike and your carrying last, you can put the 8 on mine following his last bark.... Just make sure you do the same for yours.

I've noticed and joked with guys about this inconsistency over the last year in several cast and most will admit to wearing out a watch on other dogs, while giving theirs a little cushion.

You can be a gentleman, but at the same time call someone out for not being consistent.

Before the first drop is made, I always tell the cast if I'm judging: I'll be as consistant as possible. If you think I'm not being consistant, by all means politely let me know.

If I'm not judging, I'll let the judge know I expect consistency. As long as a judge is consistent in the way he scores situations, I'll never have an issue.

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Registered: Nov 2011
Location: Genoa WV
Posts: 3565

Also people are jealous if your hunting a good dog also. I have hunted since I was 10 years old handling dogs in the hunts by myself. Before every hunt I would read the rule book over and over so I would know the rules. Now more people are starting to hunt in the hunts that don't know the rules and when you beat them by using the rules they say you cheated.

I'm 19 years old now and the coon clubs around here have been letting me judge and guide since I was 13 because I'm honest and fair to everyone. If people would read the rules like I did there wouldn't be a problem

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Registered: Sep 2010
Location: New Paris, Indiana
Posts: 7076

I experienced this situation on a UKC cast some years back. A young fella was hunting a B&T in his first nite hunt. Black dog and Redtick are treed, 5 is up, cast is shining the tree, judges dog comes in and falls treed with the other two dogs. Judge handles his dog. Tree is circled, judge announces all dogs are circled on strike, Black dog and Redtick circled on tree.
Next drop Redtick and judges dog are treed, 5's up, cast is scoring tree. Kids Black dog comes in, covers tree, judge orders him handled. Tree is plussed with a coon. Judge announces his dog and Redtick are plussed both ways, Black dog minused strike points.
Kids says "whoa there judge, your dog did the exact same thing on the very last tree and you circled YOUR dog. You, bygawd, are not gonna minus mine for the very same thing.
Reading rules 5(b) and 4(d) off the back of the card, judge tries to explain the reasoning behind his decisions but didn't even make a dent. That kid picked up his dog, went back and told everyone that would listen what a crooked deal these hunts were and, to my knowledge, never entered one again.
These hunts aren't for everyone.

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Registered: Sep 2010
Location: Tekamah,Neb.
Posts: 1196

quote:

---

Originally posted by JiM
I experienced this situation on a UKC cast some years back. A young fella was hunting a B&T in his first nite hunt. Black dog and Redtick are treed, 5 is up, cast is shining the tree, judges dog comes in and falls treed with the other two dogs. Judge handles his dog. Tree is circled, judge announces all dogs are circled on strike, Black dog and Redtick circled on tree.
Next drop Redtick and judges dog are treed, 5's up, cast is scoring tree. Kids Black dog comes in, covers tree, judge orders him handled. Tree is plussed with a coon. Judge announces his dog and Redtick are plussed both ways, Black dog minused strike points.
Kids says "whoa there judge, your dog did the exact same thing on the very last tree and you circled YOUR dog. You, bygawd, are not gonna minus mine for the very same thing.
Reading rules 5(b) and 4(d) off the back of the card, judge tries to explain the reasoning behind his decisions but didn't even make a dent. That kid picked up his dog, went back and told everyone that would listen what a crooked deal these hunts were and, to my knowledge, never entered one again.
These hunts aren't for everyone.

---

This example is why it was proposed to minus strike either way but didn't pass.

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Registered: Jun 2007
Location:
Posts: 1176

Seems to be the norm for people to come in the club house these days and say they got cheated. I walked in at walker days this yr and was asked how I did. I replied I got beat by a nice dog tonight. Half a dozen people looked at me with google eyes. The guy that ask said "Really". I had fallen behiend on the 1st drop when my dog was on a den and the other dog had a coon. I chipped back all nite and had slammed 2 coon in a row on the last two drops. We had 9 min left to hunt and I was down 25. Since the guy winning was also the guide he said we were cutting back in the woods, rather than move to the next woods like we had all nite. Since I had just slammed a coon in less than 2 min on the last two drops, that was his best move. Time ran out before we could get treed again. Some would have said they got cheated. I thought it was a great hunt and would have done the same thing myself. I just got beat. Most people don't get cheated they just get out handled imo. But there are plenty of people out there that will flat out cheat you. However, it you know the rules, you have a better chance of stopping that. Somes times you just have to suck it up as a bad draw and hope to draw honest people the next hunt.

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Registered: Mar 2008
Location: Western N.Y.
Posts: 4005

quote:

---

Originally posted by River Birch Run
Seems to be the norm for people to come in the club house these days and say they got cheated. I walked in at walker days this yr and was asked how I did. I replied I got beat by a nice dog tonight. Half a dozen people looked at me with google eyes. The guy that ask said "Really". I had fallen behiend on the 1st drop when my dog was on a den and the other dog had a coon. I chipped back all nite and had slammed 2 coon in a row on the last two drops. We had 9 min left to hunt and I was down 25. Since the guy winning was also the guide he said we were cutting back in the woods, rather than move to the next woods like we had all nite. Since I had just slammed a coon in less than 2 min on the last two drops, that was his best move. Time ran out before we could get treed again. Some would have said they got cheated. I thought it was a great hunt and would have done the same thing myself. I just got beat. Most people don't get cheated they just get out handled imo. But there are plenty of people out there that will flat out cheat you. However, it you know the rules, you have a better chance of stopping that. Somes times you just have to suck it up as a bad draw and hope to draw honest people the next hunt.

---

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Registered: Jul 2006
Location: Carrollton,Missouri
Posts: 947

Im not big on the 8 or 2 minute rule. Some are on that stopwatch all night. Ive only seen the 8 minute rule get one dog. Usually Im laid back in the hunts and Im consistent. Anybody that is honest will tell you Im fair.

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Registered: Nov 2011
Location: Genoa WV
Posts: 3565

I don't listen to people that whine and say they got cheated because if you can't go out and have a good time call your dog and see whose dog is the best then whoever whines doesn't need to be there

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Registered: Oct 2013
Location: Maryland
Posts: 2633

There are a lot of good points on this thread. This is probably going to make a few folks mad but.....if you go on a hunt and get cheated because you don't know the rules then you are half responsible. If you go on nite hunts and don't take the time to learn the rules you are sort of cheating yourself. Cheating is wrong but the desire to win is human nature and people will do anything. Here is a good example of cheating that I saw first hand. This happened back in the early 90's. The cheater owned a big kennel and just about every dog in it was either a Ntch. or Grntch. Here is how he did it...he only entered his dogs in hunts that were close enough for him to be the guide. Usually but not always he was the hunting judge and wasted not time stacking the odds in his favor if he sensed another handler was slack on the rules. He had feeders in the woods and every feeder was placed about 100 yards or so from a hole in a hog wire fence. His dogs knew the woods, the feeders but more importantly the holes to run right thru. Each turnout went the same way...he always had first strike {imagine that} and he almost always had first tree. In fact, on most turnouts his dog was treed before the rest of the cast got thru the fence. Like all cheaters his kennel fell by the wayside and nobody talks about his line of dogs anymore. The sad fact was that his dogs really were good enough that he never had to operate that way to win. He just had to do it that way to win every cast. The most cheating I see usually involves misinformed handlers regarding the "majority cast rule", many handlers think it applies to every decision made by a hunting judge cast.

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Registered: Apr 2008
Location: Reelsville , Indiana
Posts: 1124

I've lost a whole lot more than I've won. The only time I should have won a cast and didnt, was my own fault. You go to these things and learn. Some people just have to win. It's like a drug to them. They aren't enjoyable to be around at ANYTHING, cards, basketball, whatever it may be. And it's generally the same people that come back time after time that cry about being "cheated"; everyone has been to a hunt and heard at least a few people let out a big sigh and say, " I hope I don't draw that guy. He's a(n) (insert adjective).

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Registered: Jun 2005
Location: BIG CREEK (NW) NC
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Its a lot easier for the ones "being cheated" to say "I got cheated" rather than "I didn have enough dog power tonight"

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