Registered: Sep 2008
Location: Greeneville,Tn
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2 DOGS TREED LAST NIGHT OTHER 2 WENT ACROSS A RIDGE OR MTN?? HUNTIN IN ROGERSVILLE TN BIG HILLS LOL ONE DOG THAT TRAILS OUT OF HEARIN IS STRUCK IN ? IS WHEN WE PULL THE FIRST 2 OFF THE TREE WHEN AND WHERE DO YOU APPLY THE 8MIN RULE KEEP IN MIND WE HEARD THE DOG TRAIL OUT DO YOU PUL DOGS OFF AND APPLY THE 8 OR DO YOU GO TO THE HIGHEST POINT THEN APPLY THE 8 ? JUST A ? WE HAD ON THE CAST LAST NIGHT HAD NO EFFECT ON THE OUTCOME OF THE CAST....

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Registered: Jun 2003
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You should go to a point that the cast feels that you should be able to hear the dog, then start the eight.

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Most say go to where the dog was last heard and start the 8. I have always questioned wheather that means where the cast was or where the dog was when last heard?

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Registered: Sep 2007
Location: Western Pa
Posts: 3377

Timeout should be called when different dogs trail out of hearing, however, I agree in that cast should go to place where dogs were last heard and 8 should be applied.

If timeout were to be used properly, it should have been called as soon as it were determined dogs were to be trailing out of hearing, not after the tree was scored and nobody was heard...

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Registered: Sep 2008
Location: Greeneville,Tn
Posts: 848

IF YOU GO TO THE TOP WHICH WE DID IT TOOK 20MINS TO GET THERE ONE CAST MEMBER DIDNT WANT TO HOLD HIS DOG ON THE LEASH FOR THIS LENGTH OF TIME BUT YOU CANT START THE TIME TIL YOU GET WHERE YOU CAN HEAR ITS NOT FLAT AROUND HERE THE RULES DONT ADJUST FOR HILLS AND MTNS REMEMBER 20MINS TO THE TOP WALKIN UP A ROAD WOULD YOU WANT TO RECAST YOUR DOG AND GET STRUCK AGAIN AND SAVE ANOTHER DOGS STRIKE POINTS OR WALK HAD USED LESS THAN AN HR OF HUNTIN TIME AT THIS POINT AND WHEN WE TOPPED OUT HEARD THE DOG RECAST AND THE DOGS THAT WERE ON THE LEASH WERE STRUCK AND TREED IN LESS THAN 6MINS ? YOU CANT MAKE EVERYBODY HAPY NO MATTER WHAT BUT KINDA WONDERED WHAT THE RULE WAS ITS THE WAY WE HAVE ALWAYS DONE IT IS IT RITE OR RONG

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Registered: Apr 2006
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i dont thank you can advance your position,go back dwn the
hill climb to the top of the oposite hill and start time or go
where you last heard him.

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Registered: Jun 2003
Location: Morrison TN
Posts: 4927

You can do it however the cast wants to do it.

You can go to where you last heard the dog, or you can go to the top of the ridge where you should be able to hear the dog. It would be unreasonable to insist that you have to only go back to where you were standing when you last heard him if you know the dog went over the ridge on the left etc.

As for the time out, yes you would call time out if they were trailing out of hearing in opposite directions, but that call is not to be made until it gets to where you can't judge the dogs, they can tree at any time, and as soon as one trees the provision for time out is gone (since they aren't trailing out of hearing in different directions any more).

Around here they could have been just fine but by the time you got to the dog that was treed it could have topped out over the ridge and you can't hear him.

In that instance I usually go to the top of the ridge the dog went over and listen. It just makes sense. I don't want someone getting beat cause their dog treed across the ridge from me and we didn't hear him all night.

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Registered: Apr 2006
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Posts: 6548

im not walking your dog 20 min threw the woods mine didnt
have a problem treeing in hearing,go back to the spot put
time on it call time out

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Registered: Jun 2003
Location: Morrison TN
Posts: 4927

quote:

---

Originally posted by blueticking: it
im not walking your dog 20 min threw the woods mine didnt
have a problem treeing in hearing,go back to the spot put
time on it call time out

---

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Last edited by Rip on 04-04-2010 at 06:55 PM

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Registered: Apr 2006
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how do you hunt hills rip?TURN UP A CREEK and walk the high
points.like i said i ant walking your dog

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Registered: Jun 2003
Location: Morrison TN
Posts: 4927

If you were outvoted you would or you would go to the truck. You should be able to come to a fair conclusion if everyone is reasonable. If not, well most of the time the unreasonable one can go to the truck.

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Registered: Apr 2006
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Posts: 6548

is that what the rule says are does it say go back to last place
you heard them

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Registered: Jun 2003
Location: Morrison TN
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Todd has had this discussion before. The guide should be consulted as to the best place to be able to hear the dog. Common sense has to apply when you are dealing with natural things.

In other words, nobody has to swim across a river, you can call time out and get in the truck and drive across on the bridge.

But you can't use your vehicle to hunt.

Same thing here, the Advisors have stated to go back to the last place, or where you should be able to hear them.

But there is no specific rule on the back of the scorecard.

If you didn't do that then a guide could walk down in a hollar where you couldn't hear the dogs treed then put the 2 on them to minus them if his dog wasn't there.

You can't score a dog that you know is unable to be scored because of a natural barrier. You have to do something about it. There are enough provisions within the rules to come to some sort of way to fairly score the dogs legally without unfairly punnishing a dog if people are reasonable.

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Last edited by Rip on 04-04-2010 at 08:09 PM

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Registered: Apr 2006
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Posts: 6548

you got your not leash locking my dog for 20 min the only
dog to have treed in hearing.we can walk the other 1 all night
and he still want tree if he would he would have been competing
on the 1st tree.

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Registered: Jun 2003
Location: Morrison TN
Posts: 4927

If you want to be that way and try and penalize a dog because it went over a ridge 50 yards away that's your perrogative, but you only have ONE vote. If the guide/judge wants to go to the top to listen then you have to do that unless you question it and win the question. If you turn the dog loose you will be scratched right then and there. If the cast says they are going to the top of the hill to listen/turn loose then that's where you will go or you will go to the truck.

One person can't over-ride the entire cast.

By the same token, if the ridge was 1/2 a mile away and the owner of that dog wanted to go to the top of the ridge but the rest of the cast wanted to do somethin different then he would have to do that.

You can't just do what benifits your dog, not if you have a strong judge. You go to the truck.

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Last edited by Rip on 04-04-2010 at 08:54 PM

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Registered: Apr 2006
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quote:

---

Originally posted by Bobby Stevens
IF YOU GO TO THE TOP WHICH WE DID IT TOOK 20MINS TO GET THERE ONE CAST MEMBER DIDNT WANT TO HOLD HIS DOG ON THE LEASH FOR THIS LENGTH OF TIME BUT YOU CANT START THE TIME TIL YOU GET WHERE YOU CAN HEAR ITS NOT FLAT AROUND HERE THE RULES DONT ADJUST FOR HILLS AND MTNS REMEMBER 20MINS TO THE TOP WALKIN UP A ROAD WOULD YOU WANT TO RECAST YOUR DOG AND GET STRUCK AGAIN AND SAVE ANOTHER DOGS STRIKE POINTS OR WALK HAD USED LESS THAN AN HR OF HUNTIN TIME AT THIS POINT AND WHEN WE TOPPED OUT HEARD THE DOG RECAST AND THE DOGS THAT WERE ON THE LEASH WERE STRUCK AND TREED IN LESS THAN 6MINS ? YOU CANT MAKE EVERYBODY HAPY NO MATTER WHAT BUT KINDA WONDERED WHAT THE RULE WAS ITS THE WAY WE HAVE ALWAYS DONE IT IS IT RITE OR RONG

---

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Registered: Jun 2003
Location: Morrison TN
Posts: 4927

It doesn't matter how long it is, UNLESS YOU WIN THE QUESTION YOU WILL GO TO THE TRUCK. That's the point I was making. There are enough solutions within the rules to satisfy everyone, but you do what the cast wants to do, not what 1 person wants to do.

There is nothing you can do about it.

You will be scratched.

In that part of the country it may take 20 minutes to go 300 yards. That's tough. It's part of it.

If the guide/judge says "we have to go up here to score the dog" then that's where you have to go unless you question it, and win the question.

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Registered: Jul 2003
Location: columbia,mo.
Posts: 1256

There is no way I would lead my dog for 20 mins toward another dog unless he was treed. Two hunts ago a guys dog was running what he even thought was a deer. Mine went the other way. I wanted to call time and get them. He wanted to walk away from the one dog we could hear to some that we couldn't keep up with. Notice I said couldn't keep up with. We tried and we did try and split the difference. It just wasn't happening and there is no way I'm going to walk the 1 3/4 that the dog went chasing a deer to find him treed on a coon. That's not fair for anyone except ole trasher. I agree that the cast should try and walk toward the dog but 20 min is way over the boundry. That is just some of the brakes. I would have started the eight when I couldn't hear the dog and then walked that way. I think the eight according to one of the advisor columns is suposed to start right away.

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Registered: Jun 2003
Location: Morrison TN
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quote:

---

Originally posted by chris baker
There is no way I would lead my dog for 20 mins toward another dog unless he was treed. Two hunts ago a guys dog was running what he even thought was a deer. Mine went the other way. I wanted to call time and get them. He wanted to walk away from the one dog we could hear to some that we couldn't keep up with. Notice I said couldn't keep up with. We tried and we did try and split the difference. It just wasn't happening and there is no way I'm going to walk the 1 3/4 that the dog went chasing a deer to find him treed on a coon. That's not fair for anyone except ole trasher. I agree that the cast should try and walk toward the dog but 20 min is way over the boundry. That is just some of the brakes. I would have started the eight when I couldn't hear the dog and then walked that way. I think the eight according to one of the advisor columns is suposed to start right away.

---

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Last edited by Rip on 04-04-2010 at 11:55 PM

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I would start the 8 from where the handler stood when he struck the dog, or at the point along the way to the tree where the cast clearly last heard the dog from.
Once the 8 is running, if the handler wants to walk the direction his dog was last heard that is fine as long as it is logical. If we're on top of the mountain, I'm not walking to the top of another one.
I don't think any registry has clarified what to do while the 8 is running. If heard its "the handler's option" and I'll go along with that to a point. If the cast majority feel we should be able to hear the dog from here, than that's where we'll be. Remember the 8 started, at the point we last heard the dog like the rules say.
Too often excessive walking to get within hearing of a dog is all a waste. Chances are that dog stroked a deer out of the country. I'm not going to leash lock a dog that was able to get treed within the pocket for any more time than it takes to get back to the point where the dog was last heard and for an additional 8 minutes.

Another thing that should be clarified is, "where the dog was last heard". I take that as where the cast was when the dog was last heard, not where the dog was. I've had that come up several times.

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Registered: Apr 2006
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lol rip we will walk the ridge and go dwn when we hear them.
your not the only guy to hunt hills nobody writes special rules
for you.

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Registered: Jun 2003
Location: Morrison TN
Posts: 4927

Nope, nobody writes special rules for anybody. I follow the rules 100% to a tee and if I don't it's just a mistake. The difference in me and some others is I score every situation the same, regardless of what it does/doesn't do to my dog. I will find your coon even if it beats me, and show it to you.

Are you gonna tell me that when you turn loose and your dog goes up the ridge a quarter tops out and goes over the other side you start the 8 and minus him?

I didn't think so.

If you do though come and draw out with me, I want to see you minus your dog every time it goes over a ridge. (these ridges are big enough you ain't gonna get to where you can hear within 8 minutes).

It is you that is wanting special rules. You are wanting to do whatever benifits your dog and whatever you can to minus every other dog in the cast without following the rules.

There is a reason Todd said driving around is not prohibited. Yes, whether you guys know it or not you are allowed to drive around natural obstacles.

What I am talking about doesn't break any rule. Part of hunting is keeping up with the dogs and trying to keep them in hearing. Part of hunting in the mountains is that if they go over the ridge it may be 10-15 minutes before you can get up high enough to hear them. Todd has plainly said that you can drive around in that instance and NOT put the 8 on them if it's gonna take an unreasonable amount of time to get over the ridge. My take on that was if it took more than 15 minutes you could call time out and drive around, same as when you can call time out between trees, but yes it is permitted. If that's permitted then it is permitted to walk to the top of the ridge BEFORE you start the 8 if you know the dog went over that ridge and you can't hear it from where you stand.

UKC has always held that you use common sense when running times (don't start the 2 when you go down in a hollar or while the train is coming by and you don't start the 8 when the cast knows the dogs went over a ridge and can't be heard from where you stand). The 8 is to minus a dog for losing a track, not to minus a dog for going over a ridge that may be treed 30 yards down the other side.

It's not special for me, it's special for TERRAIN. It is completely and totally unreasonable to minus a dog every time one goes over a ridge.

You have to be in position to score a dog before you can score it. You need to make every reasonable effort to be in position at all times, but sometimes you can't and you have to get into position before you put times on a dog.

But every situation is different, that's why UKC has recognized it and allows a cast to agree to go to the top of the ridge, the last place you heard the dog, or call time out and drive around etc to keep from scoring a dog when you are not in position to score.

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Last edited by Rip on 04-05-2010 at 01:51 AM

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Rip, I'd love to draw out with you. Even if we disagreed, I know we'd come to a conclusion mutually.
I see what you're saying, and we have areas of big bluffs that can be as much as obstacles as your mountains.
In fairness to others in the cast, I'm going to start the 8 where we were when we last heard the dogs, or where we stood when the handler struck it. Then we can walk in the direction needed.
If the terrain is that bad where we need to stay on top of bluffs or mountains, to stay within hearing, I'd think there would be a good point to simply call timeout for dogs trailing out of hearing when walking away to score another dog's tree. Terrain is a factor as to whether calling timeout, or applying the 8 but should be determined at the time when dogs are no longer heard, not depending on whether ol' Trasher might come treed before he went over the ridge or not.

On another note, if you call timeout to drive around, do you simply call time in once you get there? What if you drive around a swollen river and get out and all dogs are treed. Do you have a calling contest or split tree points?

I had a situation once in another registry's hunt where we walked away from trailing dogs to go score a tree. I was the judge and my dog and another man's dog were treed. One handler stopped shy of scoring the tree because nature called and he had to squat in the bushes. We had walked 20+ minutes to score our tree. The Guide, who had one of the trailing dogs, suggested we call timeout. As a judge I overlooked it, at the time it made sense to me and of course the other handler obliged, after all he was the guide. Then the other handler finished his business and said, why did we call timeout? What do we do if we walk back and dogs are treed? Then per cast majority, we tried to make 2 wrongs make a right and called time back in when we got to the point where dogs had last been heard. Both dogs were treed and we split tree points. In hindsight, we really screwed that up as an entire cast. I've never read anywhere in any registry, where you can call time back in and continue the hunt in that situation.

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Registered: Jun 2003
Location: Morrison TN
Posts: 4927

Yep Brogy, that's what you do, you call time back in when you get out of the truck if they are treed and you need to drive around. If they are trailing you can't call time out to drive around because you would have to circle the strike according to the time out rule, and that wouldn't be right cause the rules say you have to delete strike points if you call time out and that would make them not responsible for their strike points.

So if you have to drive around to get back up with them trailing have to be clear before you leave though and say "Ok we are gonna listen for a second and if they are treed all dogs treed will split tree points, if they are on track then we just resume the hunt."

If you don't have that discussion ahead of time then some jack will want to jump out of the truck and tree his dog LOL.

Just last night I was huntin with a boy that didn't know the area. My dog struck and went down the hollar. If I didn't know the terrain and was on a nite hunt the 8 would have caught her. I just told him "we gotta walk back to the truck to hear her". We had to walk about 5 minutes back to the truck to hear her. She took it down by the river then came up and treed on the bluff. After she treed we walked from there back the way we came and you couldn't hear a peep for 15 minutes or so until you got out on the ridge. That's just the way it is here. Someone might want to put the 2 on the dogs in that situation, but the Advisor says not to. That was a situation that I wouldn't have drove around, but I wouldn't have put any times on any dogs either until I was where I knew we could hear them. It would have been unfair to the dogs, they never were over 400 yards from us and they did what they were supposed to do.

I think it's page 122 of the Advisor that says you can call time and drive around.

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Last edited by Rip on 04-05-2010 at 03:04 AM

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Registered: May 2004
Location: northeast
Posts: 1278

Rip ....these people that can't get it through their heads what the correct procedures are in the nite hunts are the ones that cause arguements and complaints.You are beating your head against the wall arguing with these guys.
The rules are the rules whether you guys like it or not .Just because you don't like it does not mean you can not follow them. You can't make up your own rules to follow when it suits you.

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