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Most Hunters raise a llitter now and then, Trying to keep a Good thing Going. I thought it might prove interesting to Share the Best Breeding Practies that each of us has learned. If anyone can pick up One idea that helps their Breeding Program or their Hunting that makes this a Good Thread.
Lets
Not turn this into a Breed to my Dog or Hunt my Bloodline thread. A Sound breeding practice will work on any Bloodline or Breed.
Jess

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Jess
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"They are often imitated but never duplicated"

Last edited by hellcat on 08-29-2007 at 03:53 PM

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We believe that Conformation and Ability have to be #1.. If you don't have the Conformation to Carry the Ability your lossing.
#2 Breed Standards are Breed Standards stick to them in your chosen breed and don't give it up over Ability !! Your Ability will still come out when you breed the Best to the Best within the Breed Standards.. JUO

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Ability First.

Jess

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Jess
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"They are often imitated but never duplicated"

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Ability an looks are a given in my mind ... an after that I keep the gene pool small not an inbreeder per say but definately a line breeder ... it just allows me more knowledge of the dogs if I know the family inside an out an keep it close. Hence I know what to look for in the keepers an who to cull, hopefuly! LOL Sometimes a good one gets away I'm sure an sometimes a CULL ends up grown before ya catch it but hey it's not a perfect plan but a work in progress ... AN MAN OH MAN AIN'T IT FUN TO TRY AN BETTER YOUR LINE?
Bill

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Best family to best family and let the looks fall where they may.

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Cull before you breed!!!!!!

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[QUOTE]Originally posted by Bama Bill
[B]Ability an looks are a given in my mind ... an after that I keep the gene pool small not an inbreeder per say but definately a line breeder ... it just allows me more knowledge of the dogs if I know the family inside an out an keep it close. Hence I know what to look for in the keepers an who to cull, hopefuly! LOL Sometimes a good one gets away I'm sure an sometimes a CULL ends up grown before ya catch it but hey it's not a perfect plan but a work in progress ... AN MAN OH MAN AIN'T IT FUN TO TRY AN BETTER YOUR LINE?
Bill
{QUOTE] Rock Creek
Cull before you breed !!!!!

Good Post's Everyone !!!!
Jess

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Jess
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"They are often imitated but never duplicated"

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im with jackbob---- i think you can look at a pedigree and some of most important dogs to consider arent on it----

look at siblings to both parents and grandparents ---- a good chance your litter will be just like that--
some crosses work --some dont - just have to do all you can to up the odds-

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Have to agree with the cull before ya breed.
But one we really use is look at the litter and not just the dog.
Another that is used heavily here is DO NOT be affraid to admit something didn't work.
This one comes from experience,If it ain't broke don't fix it.We thought we found an outcross we wanted to make and bought the stud and got nothing but mediocre(not culls but not lead dogs either) pups.So we went back to what we were doing originally and its working again.My point is if you are having good results stick to what your doing,if your not,change something.
Another good practice is to consult someone you feel knows more than you.Remember you'll never know it all especially in the breeding game.Sometimes I think I do but then someone or something reminds me I don't LOL

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Lets keep this going. Anything that can help a younger hunter helps the future of our sport.
Jess

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Jess
Light Foot English

"They are often imitated but never duplicated"

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Registered: Feb 2006
Location: Moscow, PA
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Jess,
This is a great post. I hope it continues for along time, providing alot of ideas and insight. As you know, I'm not a breeder, but over time have come to a conclusion or two that I believe in and will use when the time is right.

1. Start with a breed/strain/family bred specifically for the game you plan to hunt.

2. Put in the proper time and effort to train up and hunt the dog.

3. If after a sufficient amount of time, the dog has proven to be EXCEPTIONAL without any serious holes, only then decide to breed it.

4. Select a mate from within the same strain/family that is as strong as possible in all concerned traits, is genetically similar and if possible has already proven to be a reproducer.

5. Make the cross ONLY because you want at least one or more of the pups AND you feel the cross will benefit your pack as well as the breed.

6. Train up and evaluate the pups you keep. Place the others in good hands where you can keep tabs on their progress and cull as necessary.

The last point really should be the first one. Be honest with your self and everyone you deal with in this venture. I'm as guilty as anyone in overlooking or not seeing or wanting to admit a fault. Sometimes a fault can be OK if you can live with it (as I do with my dogs), but it can carry on to future generations.

This is a very simplified game plan of a very complex process. Study pedigrees, inquire about dogs within that pedigree, talk to experienced breeders you trust, learn all you can, including from your mistakes and enjoy your hounds!

CasB

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Cas that is very good advice--


Make the cross ONLY because you want at least one or more of the pups AND you feel the cross will benefit your pack as well as the breed

i wouldnt sell anybody a pup that i wouldnt raise one from same litter - and i dont want to buy one ,if you arent keeping one ---


"Sometimes a fault can be OK if you can live with it (as I do with my dogs), but it can carry on to future generations."



always something i would change - if u have a bunch of perfect dogs, you are very lucky-or maybe you arent looking hard enuff -- lol



i read a post once - guy said he wouldnt breed a dog under 5 years old , because it took him that long to be sure it was free of faults--


cant say I agree with that 100%--- but i like the way he thinks

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Great Insight
As I told you before, I am impressed by your thought process.


I would suggest only one thing for your consideration. Any one of the 6 UKC breeds is so large and diverse it seems impossibile for any One breeder to make breed wide improvement. When the many thousands of hounds in each breed are considered the number of hounds One breeder would have to produce to change a entire breed, Would make several of the practices you have described impossibile .
I do think that One breeder can improve his chosen Bloodline by using the Breeding Practices you have described.
This is only my opinion. I in No Way mean to sound Disagreeable or Disrespectful. I only offer this for consideration.
Jess

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Jess
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"They are often imitated but never duplicated"

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Registered: Feb 2006
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Jess,
I was thinking about your comment and mine, concerning crosses improving the breed

Aside from a cross made to make a buck, most other crosses are made to either improve what one has or at least try and hang on to what one has, before it is lost. Essentially, any one cross may have limited impact upon the breed - may only impact one kennel or a circle of hunters....but occasionally there is that cross (especially when repeated!) that can have significant influence from coast to coast. That kind of impact though, might not be evident for years.

Although I'm going back a few years, the first example that comes to mind is the well known Butch X Jill cross within the Plott breed. This proven cross made (if I remember correctly) 6 times produced a rather high percentage of above average dogs and is found today probably more than not in most Plott ped's. I know in one of my females, it's there 52 times in 10 generations and in the other, 40 times in 10 generations.

Whether you're only breeding for yourself and your hunting buddies or breeding for the public, I think there's always the possibility of influencing the breed - even if it's only a fraction of a percent. Change can and does occur and the result, as you mentioned, would have to be evident in many many dogs.....but those dogs still only come one litter at a time

CasB

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I agree in theroy, I Hope the theroy is true. I like the idea of a Breeder advancing a entire Breed.
However until we have looked at several thousand Plott pedigrees and verified that the Butch&Jill cross was indeed present in a large % of them And that the qualities produced by the original cross was still prominent, It's only a theroy.
I have hunted with seveal dogs from the Butch&Jill cross, I am not implying that they may not have helped the Plott breed, When they were used. I am saying that out of six litters there may have been 45 to 50 dogs that lived to maturity I wonder if those dogs had the gentic dominance improve a breed of 20,000 dogs ? I am guessing about both the 45-50 dogs from that cross And the 20,000 in the Plott breed. But no more guessing than we are doing if we put a % on the number of Plotts that carry the Butch&Jill cross.
I don't hunt Plotts, But I have spent a good amount of time with several well known Plott breders. I have a Great deal of respect for Mr. Howell/Raney/Cannon/King. I liked these Gentlemen, they were hunters and houndsmen of the 1st class. They also hunted some fine Plotts.
Cas, You may be correct on this one. I hope that you are. I do think that this type of dialog has value to anyone reading it. We as gentlemen can discuss breeding theroy and by doing so learn from each other. All houndsmen can advance their breeding programs by exchanging information and ideas with other sincere breeders. The key is to do so in a civil and gentlemanly manor.
I did like your saying "Changing a Breed one Litter at a time"
I wish I would have said that<LOL>
Jess

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"They are often imitated but never duplicated"

Last edited by hellcat on 08-31-2007 at 10:28 PM

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I do not think anyone has mentioned it.

Do not ever, ever let the amount of champions on a set of papers influence your choices on breeding. Bloodlines mean nothing to me, as stated earlier ability and looks first and foremost. There are some mighty fine dogs out there that have never been to a hunt. They are probably right there in your back door.

Breed the best to the best and hope for the best! Live it, breath it and all will work out.

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That line breeding To narrow the Gene Pool, Can and Hopefully Will bring out Gentic faults. Only when the Gentic faults of a line are exposed can those faults be corrected. The fault could be a phyiscal defect or a mental one or even just a behavioral tendency. No matter, You can only fix what you can find. Narrowing the gene pool helps you find some fualts that were hidden. Now you can start to breed those faults out of your line..
This takes years, But if you are not planing on spending years with the line, Why breed them ?
Jess

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"They are often imitated but never duplicated"

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bear dog to bear dog none under 2 1/2 years old make sure your breeding to better your pack or the try to inprove your packs weakness thats the only real way to do it

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So Right Jess ; After a few pups from a breeding have been tested and found to be hunters. We do a "Proof Breeding" Son to Mother or Father to daughter. We only keep a few from a litter and test them hard..

The first thing we found was when we consentrated certin "Gascon" Blues- strains we get "Groin Hernias" in both Female and Male pups. with #s of 4 out of 8 Pups in the litter "None of these pups (all 8) ever took their next breath" sad but true.. The pups that are kept for hunt testing are never bred they are "Fixed" at 13 months old. This gives us time to check for other Items such as"Aggression / Temperment / Ability / Conformation / Trainability Ect."
We usuly keep at least 1 or more pups and other are distribute out other good trainers/hunters..
The one thing about breeding Hounds/Dogs is with-in a years time or more they eather have the ability or not. Then you can "Change Up" if you have to.

This year was the first year we have tried the Walker/Cross and we still had some Gen Faults show up that the Walker lines are showing,, 1 out of 12 pups had "Bloat belly" which this one had a Intestional "Twist" .. How many of these are showing up in the Walker Breed ??? Who knows the pups are Culled but its still being passed along in the pups not showing any signs of it..

It is VERY IMPORTANT that all breeder be forth comming about what is showing up in their Pups and not sweeping it under the carpet !!

How Many Hounds Do we have ??? 11 - Most all are Breeders that are hunted aleast twice a week from Aug. 1st.- June. 1st.
Pups in training at the Moment is "11" 5 are going to B.C. Can. at the end of Oct. We are keeping 6 pups to start-finish hounds and I know were keeping atleast 4 of those pups..

If ANY Falt shows up we Fix it then and Now !! Heck one of our best Females that we had 3 great litters out of showed sign of Inturned lower eye lid which is a Genetic Falt so we had her Fixed.. We are paying for any operations on the pups we sold to correct the Eyes but are encoraging their owner to have the pups Fix and or we will replace them. This is being a responable Breeder..

We are starting new lines so they have to be Perfict or else you have nothing to build your line with..

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I won't pretend to know much about breeding, but I can tell you I am impressed by the guys that consistantly produce whole litters that work. I don't think you can ever finally "arrive" as good traits are as easy to lose as they are to gain through outcrosses. I have been lucky to be able to get some pups out of proven crosses, but I have gotten some average or lousy dogs from the same line. For those guys committed to making a line better, guys like me owe a debt of gratitude. Breeders will be farther ahead by putting dogs in the hands of people that hunt the heck out of them. In my opinion that is the only way to know if it is really working.

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I have bred some dogs over the years and I agree with some of the things hellcat said, esp. about linebreeding and keeping the gene pool small.
Everyone does things differently, including breeding hounds. Over the years I have heard comments like, "I don't care if it's a poodle as long as it stays treed." "Papers don't make a coon dog", etc.
I recently heard a man wanting a top female to breed to his good hound. He said that he didn't care what the bloodline on her was.
I was amazed when I heard that comment.
I don't think this man will get far in breeding quality stock.
I was very fortunate to get some of the best stock that was available many years ago, and it has always worked for me. So I stuck with it. And I will continue to do so. Be very, very careful when outcrossing, not breeding to what's hot at the moment.
While I'm not a big game hunter, I nevertheless like a hound dog, loud bawl mouth on track and having a cold nose with lay-up ability, and good natured.
I've heard comments that with all the coon we have now, a dog doesn't need a cold nose. That may be true, but I'll continue to breed for the type of hound that I like, and these traits will be concentrated. And you can take that to the bank.
This is a good thread; thanks for the oportunity to include my two cents worth.

O.L. Wagner

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Let's hear some more
Jess

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"They are often imitated but never duplicated"

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A friend of mine just delivered a couple of Silvertone Toolbox pups to a young lady the other day. Here's what she had to say about the pups in her PM to me. I hope it's not inappropriate to include this message.
I have to work three 12 hour days (Sat Sun and Mon) so wont be on here much.

O.L. Wagner
Silvertone English Kennels
Home of Silvertone Toolbox

English Pups
Hey Orv! John brought those 2 females over to me today & I love them!! They are really pretty & they have awesome feet. They are really houndy & a pretty dark blue! They are real nice pups & look just how I like them too. I am really excited to start showing them in the spring. I am going to send you some pics hopefully tomorrow. All I know is those top show people better watch out because I've got some competition for them!! And my boyfriend is wanting to hunt them in the hunts when they are ready too!!

Below is a photo of one of the pups. This pup is not 4 months old yet.

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I look at the entire litter, or entire cross if theres more than one litter, and make a judgement on based on that. Im not too impressed with a barnburner whos littermates were culls, I like breeding stock from a good solid cross were at least 75% made hounds you could tree game with alone any night. They also have to work the way I like, without any major faults.


I also will not repeat a breeding where 75% or better dont pass my idea of how they should operate.


A friend of mine and I were talking about this the other night. He made a comment that realy got me to thinking. He said you dont get thouroughbreds by breeding to ponys. Also that most people want to own Man-O-War, and cant ride Flicka.


The more I thought about it, I realise some of my favorite producers were Renegades who couldnt be (or had to be) hunted down. Most were from solid crosses, they were just born with more drive then there littermates. These dogs partnered up with another dog from a good solid cross of talented hounds, produced dogs with the ability and DRIVE to excede.

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Great responses guys here is how I look at things, first I breed bear and cat dogs, don't know a thing about coon hounds, I look at five generations of dogs on both sides of the cross. If I can live with their faults, or can break them out of it, I consider, bad feet, sorry mouths etc, is not exceptable. If I have hunted with the generations, or know a good solid hunter which has they are a canidate, whether its an outcross, or cross from the five generations, on either side, they must be proven lines with the qualities I want, no exceptions.

I don't believe in breeding good hank to good hanna, you get one or two that turn out, if you don't know the background. Had to many culls, following that program. Don't listen to big stories on how good their dogs are and breed to it, Show me the meat on the table, not only that dog to breed to, but everything around him!!. Don't make excuses for your dogs, set the expectations and if they don't measure up, find a line that will. My dogs will show promise by 8 months, or else. Dont feed maybe some day dogs!!, give them a fair chance by then, you will know the answer, after that you will probably only have an average dog. Dont mean to sound harsh, but that is life, I want top dogs!

When I speak of genetic traits, such as indepence, can you live with it? One side of my line, at a year old want their own bear, you can have one bayed, and if they hit another they will take it by themselves, can you live with it? I can, by two and a half, they will pack better, but when learning, I know that is what they will do. I always cuss them and say, if they knew half of what they thought they did, they would be a real dog already, its a learning curve you have to go through with them. By two they are real dogs already, can you live with that genetic trait? I'm hunting the fifth generation, they are all the same.

A mans theory, said to me, breed a cold nose to cold nose, or hot nose to hot, but hot to cold doesn't work. I believe some truth there, which I follow also.

My last two crosses, after many years of trying the other ways, are 100% turn out. Probably some luck also, but I went to the woods this july with five year old dogs and two two year old bear dogs. After the heart ache of pups, and getting them focused, here was the score. Friday one, saturday, sow and four cubs, sow and two cubs, sunday one, monday one, and tuesday one, all treed, count how you want. Not bragging, proving, the right cross works and works at young ages. A medium bottle of penicillian gone, and season is over. I believe I'm finally on the right track to breeding a high turn out of good dogs. I'm sharing knowledge, not bragging, but showing results of my breeding theory.

One last thing, I bred my year old dog, and she only had one pup. I could see she has what I wanted, I knew her background, of generations and bred to my male which I have hunted with five generations, So, she is now two, my main start dog, and her pup is a year old in july and made every race in the last month, and I can count on this pup, like a four year old dog. I don't believe in waiting until they are five, know the background and breed young, so you can enjoy the crosses again, if you know and have a good dog, with five good generations, strip some seemen, your set for life, Breeding good dogs with a high percent of turn out is a challenge to all of us, I hope this has given you something to think about, Good luck.

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