Registered: Aug 2007
Location: ohio
Posts: 47

if a dog is on the clock for not hunting,and the other dog strikes on a rabbit but blowes it up (other dog still not hunting and on the clock) the 3 min gets him do u handle the dogs or leave the clock to go???? The non hunting dog only has 30 sec left to hunt or it will be scratched.
Thanks

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Nov 2007
Location: West Lafayette, Ohio
Posts: 415

lets get the info straight.....the dog on the clock has only been on the clock for three minutes and thirty seconds when the other dog was minused. (Eddie....simple math states that 5 minutes minus 3 minutes and thirty seconds is equivalent to 1 minute and thirty seconds which is also equivalent to 90 seconds....not the thirty seconds like you entailed).

__________________
**Olinger Beagle Kennels**

Home of 2008 Black Gold Ohio Junior State Race Winner and 2009 Black Gold All Age State Race Winner: CH GRHBCH OLINGER'S POLLY WANNA WABBIT

HBCH CH OLINGER'S SINGING SADIE

CHECK OUT OLINGER'S BEAGLE KENNELS WEBSITE & DAILY BLOG: www.olingersbeaglekennels.weebly.com

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Sep 2008
Location: michigan home of the best dog in the country
Posts: 130

if i was the judge and olny ONE DOG WAS RUNNING i would say i want to let the dogs hunt and minus dog 1 for not producing unless you can find a whole than circle his strike. I REALLY DONT SEE THE POINT IN HANDLING THE HOUNDS AND RECASTING THEM JUST MINUS THE DOG THAT COULD NOT PRODUCE AND KEEP THE THE OTHERS HUNTING,AND THE CLOCK RUNNING.

A GOOD HANDLER WILL SCRATCH HIS DOG FOR STANDING AROUND AS IT DOSE NOT DESERVE TO WIN THAT DAY

__________________
home of
HBCH Elmer Fudd Chapko
HBCH Simple Plesures Ace
NIGHT CHAMPION TARA STORM CHAPKO

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Dec 2008
Location:
Posts: 284

Even though the track is dead you don't have to handle the dogs, as Outlaw stated. Leave 'em down and let time run on that dog that's not hunting.

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Aug 2003
Location: Elkins, WV
Posts: 337

What if you are the guy that just had his dog minused? I sure wouldn't want to leave my dog in an area that he/she will more than likely bark back in again. If the dog isn't hunting, more than likely it will get on the clock again and be minused out.

Now if I weren't the guy that just had his dog minused or the guy with the dog on the clock, I say leave em down.

I guess it just depends on which cast member you are. LOL

PS: I never could understand why there is such a big deal made over dogs not hunting. If you are consistently getting beat by dogs that don't hunt, you may want to rethink your whole situation.

Last edited by SRB on 10-12-2009 at 09:39 PM

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Dec 2008
Location:
Posts: 284

Well SRB, I have seen dogs that wouldn't hunt win casts.

It happens because they might be fast track hounds with no hunt. They hang around until another dog jumps a rabbit, then they go in. They may get 2nd strike even, depending on where the 1st strike hound is in relation the the people and the other hounds that are hunting. If they are decent on a track they can rack up some points with 1st or 2nd lines.

They don't usually take minus by themselves because they aren't hunting, just going in to other hounds. If they do get minus, it's usually a -50, with the rest of the hounds.

Don't think a dog that doesn't hunt well can't beat a great hunting hound. It happens.

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Aug 2003
Location: Elkins, WV
Posts: 337

justsandm...note the word consistently in my post

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Sep 2008
Location: michigan home of the best dog in the country
Posts: 130

I AGREE WITH JUSTSAND
still trying to figure out why someone would want that dog that keeps getting in trouble around here they dont last long

__________________
home of
HBCH Elmer Fudd Chapko
HBCH Simple Plesures Ace
NIGHT CHAMPION TARA STORM CHAPKO

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Dec 2008
Location:
Posts: 284

Well sure, I see the word. But, who wants it to happen even one time if it doesn't have to?

If I can only attend 8 to 10 hunts per year, getting beat by a "me too" dog one time during that year is too much.

If I was able to make 10 hunts, that one time would be 10% of the time. That's too high when proper use of the clock would fix the problem most of the time.

Most times a dog goes onto the clock, it's already been not hunting for several minutes.

The times I've seen a poor hunt dog win a cast, it has been obvious to everyone in the cast that the dog should have been gone a long time ago. The judge would just never hit that button. One handler even demanded that the judge put his dog on the clock. I think he was embarrassed by how his dog was hunting. If the rule was properly enforced those dogs wouldn't have made it through 1/2 of the cast.

If a dog comes back and stops near the cast, hit the button. Some casts it will never happen. Some it will happen more often. Time may only go for 5 seconds on the dog, but it may go for 5 minutes. You may say that starting the clock immediately is too harsh. So, when do you start it? 1 minute, 2 minutes, 3 minutes... when everyone starts whispering and the atmosphere is odd?

If it didn't matter, it wouldn't be a rule.

How's it gonna feel to the guy that loses a HUGE hunt to that dog. Some will say that the rule would be enforced at a bigger hunt. I say, why should rules be enforced any differently at any hunt. I don't care if there is only one cast or if there are 100 casts, the rules are the same.

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Jul 2003
Location: almost heaven / Holmes county
Posts: 1591

Eddie, When a dead track is called, Hounds MUST be picked up and recast, Now for the dog on the clock......... Rule say ANY CONTINOUS 5 min of non- hunting. If there was 3 1/2 mins on that dog when the other dog got minused you should handle ALL and when you re-cast that dog has 1 1/2 minutes to go hunting or he's SCRATCHED

__________________
GOTTA GO KENNELS !!!!! As Good as the Best and Better than the REST
Home of
2008 Black Gold National JR State Race Run Off Champion GRCH HBCH PR GOTTA GO SEE YA BYE

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Sep 2003
Location: Markle,IN
Posts: 1570

That sounds like a good way to handle that Scott.

__________________
Joe Brown
UKC Field Representative

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Mar 2006
Location: Buckeye State
Posts: 431

Hey, Scott, I would hope it would be that way, but when you handle the dogs, and then recast the dogs you would have to restart the clock. If not then we would just scratch dogs left in right for the total time that was accumulated. I know I don't totally agree with it either, I'm with you on this , but I think that how the rule is to be interpreted.

__________________
JEREMY GEIGER

Lightning Strike Kennels

• WorldPCH GrHbCh Pch JG'S On The Move Prune Juice
  
• HBCH JG'S Lightning Striking Larry
  
• HBCH JG'S Buckeye Mark V'S Trapper (RIP-9-23-09)
  
• HBCH Hy-View Beeline Beulah
  

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Dec 2008
Location:
Posts: 284

Scott,
Help me find the rule where it says dogs must be handled and recast. I've looked but I'm having trouble locating it. The majority of casts I've been on have had at least one time where the judge gives the option to the cast to handle the dogs or leave them down.

I'll look again but I can't find that rule.

Thanks, Scott

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Jan 2007
Location: Berkeley County,West Virginia
Posts: 959

Continuous : marked by uninterrupted extension in space, time, or sequence. (Webster dictionary)
The rules say continuous, Not Accumilated Time. When dogs are re-casted the time starts over.

__________________
GRPCH GRHBCH GRCH Cedar Grove's Loko Go Cowboy

CH GRPCH GRHBCH McGrady's Loko Go Rosco ( 2011 PP World Championship 9th place )
GRPCH CH GRHBCH Cedar Grove's Loko Go RC Cola ( WV High Point PP Hound 2010 & 2012)
PCH GRCH Cedar Grove's Briarpatch Holly NBPPA'S 1st Total Dog Winner 2011
GRPCH Jollife's Valleyveiw Cally (Pumpkin) 2011 WV High Point PP Hound
HBCH CH GRPCH Cedar Grove's Briarpatch Nugget 2011 WV PP State Run-off Winner
NTCH CH Bone's Relic Hunter (Moose)
Bone's Smooth Southern Shine [Stolen}

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Dec 2008
Location:
Posts: 284

I looked for that rule again and still can't find it. The closest I found is in "speed and drive" but it only refers to the cast voting on if dogs will be picked up or not at the time each line is called.

"At time rabbit is seen, Judge or majority of cast if hunting Judge is used, must decide whether to allow dog(s) to continue on trail or pick up dog(s) in order to find new ground or another rabbit."

This is the only place I'm finding anything about picking up the dogs but you'd have to if you're pulling them off of a running rabbit.

In "Losses and Recoveries" is says nothing about it.

"If no dog opens within three minutes, track to be considered finished and that particular track must be minused."

That's all it says.

You seem to really know your rules so direct me to what I'm missing here.

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Mar 2006
Location: Buckeye State
Posts: 431

Thats what I said, This is why, we had a rules committee, to add, delete, change or simplify the rules, and looks like none of that got done. Not bashing the committee, just stating facts. Come on UKC, Have you ever read the rules and understand some of the situations that come up over and over, Please help simplify the rules and clarify the grey areas, cause not all of us can read between the lines. the rules should read clear, defined and simple for all to judge and understand. We should'nt have to be a Philadelphia lawyer to understand them.

__________________
JEREMY GEIGER

Lightning Strike Kennels

• WorldPCH GrHbCh Pch JG'S On The Move Prune Juice
  
• HBCH JG'S Lightning Striking Larry
  
• HBCH JG'S Buckeye Mark V'S Trapper (RIP-9-23-09)
  
• HBCH Hy-View Beeline Beulah
  

Last edited by LARRY DEAN on 10-13-2009 at 03:05 AM

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Dec 2008
Location:
Posts: 284

I agree. There seems to be a lot of things guys have "assumed" over the years and adopted.

like...
- seeing the rabbit makes it plus points. (this one is in the rules but kind of confusing and easy to misread)
- MUST pick the dogs up and recast. Sorry, but I don't see that anywhere.

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Jul 2003
Location: almost heaven / Holmes county
Posts: 1591

OK guys , I am in NO WAY an expert at this but I can tell you I have been judging for a LONG LONG time, and I've sat through MANY rule seminars and read ALOT of question answer articles, I do not have a rule book in front of me but I can say that I pretty sure I'm right on the 5 min rule, it was brought up over and over at rule seminars and was ALWAYS answered the way I stated it. The rule says Failing to make any attempt to hunt within any continuous 5 minutes of the hunt, The interpritation I was told is continuous ment ANY TIME THEY ARE OFF THE LEASH, So if a dog has 4minutes of non hunting then catches a lucky break ans has to be handled and moved the clock keeps ticking as soon as the leash is off and he has the remainder of the 5 minutes to go hunting. Now if he has 3-4 minutes and actually goes hunting then comes back later you would RESTART the clock
I do have a scorecard here and can not find exactly where it says dogs must be handled after a dead track , I have even asked a handler if they want to handle dogs or leave them down, especially on a one dog struck situation. But I was told you are suppossed to handle them at the end of ALL tracks.
Guess we need UKC's Official answer
JED?????????????????????

__________________
GOTTA GO KENNELS !!!!! As Good as the Best and Better than the REST
Home of
2008 Black Gold National JR State Race Run Off Champion GRCH HBCH PR GOTTA GO SEE YA BYE

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Aug 2003
Location: Calhoun KY
Posts: 995

quote:

---

Come on UKC, Have you ever read the rules and understand some of the situations that come up over and over, Please help simplify the rules and clarify the grey areas, cause not all of us can read between the lines. the rules should read clear, defined and simple for all to judge and understand. We should have to be a Philadelphia lawyer to understand them.

---

__________________
From Field to Show and Show to Field the way it should be

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Dec 2008
Location:
Posts: 284

No offense to Jed or UKC, but it doesn't really matter what Jed's interpretation of the situation is either, it's whats in black and white in that book and on the back of the card. There are thousands of people attending these hunts and only one way for them to determine how to score and what to do, the rules. Jed can come on here and say what he feels it means but it only matters what's in print in the official rule book. Those are the rules. UKC has the power to change them if they want but they just had that option and only decided to change how the time is kept on the card, something I don't see a whole lot of questions about or problems with.

(UKC is more worried about me changing the name of my dog because it was offensive, "Stiffy". I guess they didn't see "Big Brutus Bawls" "Itchy Nuts" "Rusty Peter" and several others I have seen since I got that letter. Some are blatent!)

My answer to the original question was to leave the dogs down and wait till that time has elapsed on that dog. As far as I can see there is nothing that states that would be not OK to do.

That track hadn't been moved for at least 3 minutes anyway. If I'm the guy with the dog that just got minused on the track, I'm not really worried about my dog striking on that rabbit again. If he does, maybe he'll get it jumped this time. If he strikes again and doesn't produce again, he deserves to be minused again.

Last edited by justsandm on 10-13-2009 at 01:23 AM

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Apr 2004
Location: Milton, WV
Posts: 2551

this happen in a cast i and bud were on at nationals...

dale told us its tough luck that we had to handle dogs and the fella caught a bye...

jack

__________________
Visit XDawgBeagles.com

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Mar 2006
Location: Buckeye State
Posts: 431

Scott this is what you said earlier, and that may be , or had happened, But this year at the rules committee, there was a proposal for the accumulation of 5 min, 10 min or etc. on a dog that didn't hunt to be scratched. It didn't pass. What your stating is the same, an accumulation of 5 min. not a continuous of 5. I'm not trying to argue at all. You know I don't care for the rule and agree with you, just stating that they should clarify some of this, cause these questions do come up, and the way this sport is heading, people are picking the rules apart, so they need to be clear so we (the people thats putting the hunts on) have less problems at the local level, thats all.


I do not have a rule book in front of me but I can say that I pretty sure I'm right on the 5 min rule, it was brought up over and over at rule seminars and was ALWAYS answered the way I stated it. The rule says Failing to make any attempt to hunt within any continuous 5 minutes of the hunt, The interpritation I was told is continuous ment ANY TIME THEY ARE OFF THE LEASH

__________________
JEREMY GEIGER

Lightning Strike Kennels

• WorldPCH GrHbCh Pch JG'S On The Move Prune Juice
  
• HBCH JG'S Lightning Striking Larry
  
• HBCH JG'S Buckeye Mark V'S Trapper (RIP-9-23-09)
  
• HBCH Hy-View Beeline Beulah
  

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Sep 2005
Location: Beach City/OH
Posts: 22

This is a grey area. I interpret it as once the judge tells you to handle the dogs that is an interruption of the "continuous" time. Once they are cast again if the dog does not hunt the clock starts over. The "non-hunting" dog just caught a lucky break.

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Jun 2003
Location: Coshocton,Ohio
Posts: 2613

I was in a hunt and Ed Chalfant was the judge. One dog was put on clock for standing around, then another dog was put on clock. Time was up on first dog, but was not allowed to leash that dog, until second dogs time was up. It was explained to cast that if first dog was leahsed and lead away, and second dog followed it was interference. Question is what if the second dog hit a rabbit while following the other dog going back to truck? There is a lot of gray areas.

Last edited by thornie on 10-13-2009 at 11:37 AM

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Dec 2008
Location:
Posts: 284

You guys are still assuming you have to handle the dogs after that track.

If you go to the main Beagle page there is a scorecard on there you can view.

Someone show me where it says you have to handle the dogs when that time elapses.

I don't care who "said" it. I want to see it. If it's not there, it's not a rule. You can't just pull them out of the air.

So, let's pretend I'm the judge of that cast. I leave the dogs on the ground and the dog on the clock for not hunting gets scratched after another minute and a half. The owner wants to question the call to the MOH because I didn't have the cast handle and recast the dogs. What rule can that MOH SHOW me that could overturn my decision?

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged