Registered: Jul 2003
Location:
Posts: 352

When I started coon hunting and going to the hunts over 20 years ago I never heard of any coonhunters that didn't hunt hard for coon hides when season came in. The nite hunts were seen as something to do when you couldn't hunt for fur. Once season opened there were no nite hunts in this part of the country because no one would have showed up.
Now it seems like there are more and more people that have coonhounds just for nite hunts and don't spend much time in the woods if there isn't a scorecard involved in some way.
The beagle breed went through this back in the 50's and it got to the point where an AKC field champion was not able to bring a rabbit back to the gun. If you liked to eat rabbits you had to get a grade dog to hunt with. In "that other coonhound registry" you don't even have to see a coon to win the hunt. I wonder if there will ever come a day when a grand nite champion is not able to fill the freezer with coon hides.
I do think the hunts help to get a lot of young people involved in coonhunting and that is good for the sport. I just hope they don't loose sight of what the real purpose of a coonhound is.

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Registered: Jun 2003
Location: Fl.
Posts: 1280

Tom, I have thought about what you said many times and there are a lot of truths in what you said. I think for you to do something and be personally successful (note I said personally, not by someone elses standards) you have to love what your doing. The people that love to coonhunt (you and your dog treeing coon not comp hunting) and have a deep passion for it are the ones that get into comp hunting and are usually a lot more successful in the comp hunts than someone that gets into coonhunting cause you can win a trophy or some money with a hound. The people that really don't know what coonhunting is all about and jump in buy a dog, pick up a light and think they are going to get famous are the ones more likely to be disappointed, selling out every other month and causing the most trouble in the hunts. I see young people getting into coonhunting that don't want to handle a dead coon, say they don't want to be hard on their dog or could never cull a dog and don't want to get real muddy. Those will be the ones first out when the going gets tuff and it does on a regular basis.
If someone wants to test their hound it has to be the hound against a coon back in a swamp and no one has to know your there. If the hound can tree the coon and you enjoy hearing it happen and enjoy being there in the woods in the middle of the night your in the right sport. If you have to be winning a trophy at any expense to feel your a coonhunter or to measure your dogs success your fooling yourself and probably making several other hunters life miserable.
You comment about a Grand Night not being able to fill a freezer with coon is interesting. I would be willing to bet there are several nite champions that fit that description now and probably more grand nites than we would care to discuss.

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Registered: Jun 2003
Location: Illinois
Posts: 2967

I think that day is coming sooner than you think. The type of competion coondogs that alot of folks are breeding these days are the go yonder, hot nosed pop up coon dogs that the average meat hunter would find nearly useless in January. Not all competition dogs are that way, I have some dogs that have won big in the hunts and can be hunted in January because they have a nose and the brains to use it but these dogs are getting to be the exception more than the rule. I think the competition coonhound may be going the way of the competition bird dog. They have bred those crazy go yonder bird dogs to where a bird hunter on foot can't hunt them. In fact, I believe some have crossed these bird dogs into our hounds even if the papers say all hound. Give me a good January coonhound any day, the other guys can have the type of dogs where you are hunting dogs, not coon.

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Registered: Jun 2003
Location: Minnesota
Posts: 1076

I for one hunt several nights a week but haven't bothered with a night hunt in over 2 years. The dogs seem about the same whether I nite hunt or just hunt for fun.
..Except maybe I don't have as much trouble with trash this way.

I used to think there were a lot more hide hunters than competition hunters. Maybe not anymore?

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bruce ordway

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Registered: Jun 2003
Location: Minnesota
Posts: 1610

"Ever come a day that a Grand Night can't fill a freezer?" I think it was 1998 I judged a Gr. Nite cast, and I know for sure that one female couldn't fill my little grand daughters back pack back than. If it had been wearing my collar, only the collar would have come home.

I would guess that most are able to put a coon up a tree but I think they can say what they want but a lot of this power is not fun to hunt behind and if it's not for a scorecard the true love of the chase isn't there. If it really was they would breed more for mouth, nose and handling. And not so much for speed and tree. Besides, when you want to fill a freezer, you need something in the tree?

Where I hunt, from Sept. to Dec., I have seen 1 other hunter 1 night for the last two years. I have been in MO. in the summer and just about everyother pickup has a dog box on it, Dec. comes and the beds are empty?

Someone asked my once, if you had to lose your sight or your hearing which would it be? I said sight right away and they said why? I said I have seen how beauiful my wife, daughters and granddaughters are, and with my hearing I could always listen to the chase.

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OLD TIMER

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Registered: Jun 2003
Location: Central Arkansas
Posts: 1652

quote:

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Originally posted by OLD TIMER
"Ever come a day that a Grand Night can't fill a freezer?" I think it was 1998 I judged a Gr. Nite cast, and I know for sure that one female couldn't fill my little grand daughters back pack back than. If it had been wearing my collar, only the collar would have come home.

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Registered: Jun 2003
Location: Minnesota
Posts: 1610

We are not talking a puppy or even reg. class, we are talking "GRAND NIGHT CHAMPION" here, she looked like an idiot on the first track, second track and third track which ended up under a coon. As far as "How did she get finished?" Handler along with me-too.

The real sad part is because of her "Title" and owner she was breed and pups sold.

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OLD TIMER

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Registered: Jun 2003
Location: Underwood in.
Posts: 2312

I don't understand I thought a coondog was a coondog in Comp. or any time you turned him loose.my first comp. hunt was 1961 I still hunt in them regular I hunt 6- 7 nite's a week I don't see the kind of junk dog's you guy's are talking about in hunt's how long has it been since you guy's have been to a hunt
Back in the 60's if you had a hound that would tree a coon stay untill you got there you would win most of the time. today there is better dog's for meat or comp. if you don't think so you get out of your little world & you will See.

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Registered: Jun 2003
Location: Fl.
Posts: 1280

Mr. Flowers all I can say is your lucky to be around such good hounds. I haven't been to a hunt in probably 4 months (this summer) but the year before that I did hunt a dog in enough nite hunts to finish one to grand nite champion. By doing so you learn who your competiton is generally going to be when you go to certain clubs. I can honestly say that I hunted regulary against one dog that I do not think could tree a coon and hold the tree till the owner got there. I hated to draw the dog as it was my stiffest competition, had a good mouth get treed quick and if your dog couldn't get away from that dog you were in for a long night.
Coondog NO and the owner knows it as well as I do. Win a comp hunt yes and won several. Is this dog the norm, I don't think so or at least hope not and I am glad to hear there are solid hounds in your part of the country. But ones like I described are out there.

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Registered: Jul 2003
Location: Ohio
Posts: 662

I agree if todays dogs had to put fur in the freezer in order for the family to eat, there would be alot of hungry families.

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Registered: Jun 2003
Location: Underwood in.
Posts: 2312

Sou.Indiana & Ky. Coonhunter's hunt hard most of them every night snow heat whatever.not every dog in hunt are good hound's but the dog's today are much better today.I am sure you Remember serveral year's ago hunter's was still trying to get thier 3yr.old pup's to tree.

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Registered: Aug 2003
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Posts: 41

I am trying to get permission to hunt a PLUM area in my county right now. They are overrun with coons and they are eating their deer feed up. they have camera pictures of up to 10 coons at a time at the feeders, they eat it all up before the deer get to it. This club let a local hunter hunt there, along with his friends with the understanding they would kill the coons. They didn't, they just hunted them. I understand he is big into competition hunting. Apparently he didn't want to lose his honey hole, so he didn't kill the coons. He can't hunt there anymore. They want me to trap them, but I am trying to get them to let me train a puppy and kill them that way.

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I'd like for someone to explain to me how a dog wins 5 nite champion casts without the ability to tree a coon? Leave out all the tales of grand nites you saw that couldn't tree one and just tell me how they won those hunts. There is another thread on here(poll) where the majority want to change the standards for making a grand apparenty because their dogs can't win 5 nite champion casts. I don't know anything about beagle field trials but I do know that any coon scored on HONESTLY in a nite hunt would be a dead coon in a meat hunt. Just thinking off the top of my head, we got Minklers Kansas Thunder, Missouri Thunder, Rock Run Cloud, Bellars Psycho, Hardtime Swampcat, all within 15 miles of my front door. That's 5 grand nites that most on here have prolly never heard of and I've seen coons shot out to everyone of them this summer, hunting them alone and hunting them with other dogs. When it comes to the art of treeing coons, hounds today are better than ever before. And still we seem to be so focused on the ones that can't.

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Registered: Jun 2003
Location: Missouri
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quote:

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Originally posted by TomMN
I just hope they don't loose sight of what the real purpose of a coonhound is.

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Last edited by John D on 08-22-2003 at 10:13 PM

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Registered: Jun 2003
Location: Minnesota
Posts: 1610

Just read the post on this board and PKC's board and read what happens on "some" hunts, that's how you can win a hunt with no or little hound power. Today I read were a guy got scratched for handling his dog when it jumped up on him, that's BS. I was just on a hunt, as a guess, where one handler was a jerk and one handler withdrew and he had so many questions for the judge, that it took the judge out of the picture. This guy has put a lot of "Grands" on different hounds for different owners, does he flat out cheat-No, but he sure knows how to "work the rules". Don't get me wrong, I have also been on a few hunts where the "Grands" did a very go job and I would have fed their hound. But as far as better hounds today than yesterday overall? Only better bred for the scorecard. Because if you think the card promotes a cold nose, work out a bad track hound or one that leaves a tree when all h&!! breaks lose, there's Ocean frontage in Fargo ND!

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Registered: Jul 2003
Location: Ohio
Posts: 662

Mr Jim, Sir you and all the hunters know how they make these counterfeit hounds. The power is in the palm of there hands in the form of Franklins and Grants. Also the buddy system works really well in competition hunts.

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I wonder how many coonhunters who have never competed but would like to give it a try read these posts and decide"no way I'm getting involved in that crooked sport". Why would they even try? The ones that win are cheaters and the titled dogs are mostly countefits. Why would anyone want to disgrace their hound by putting a title on it? It's a **** shame that it has gotten to where success in this sport is almost a black mark on ones reputation.

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Registered: Jun 2003
Location: Fl.
Posts: 1280

Jim I sure hope by talking about the caliber of dogs I have seen win I am not painting the picture you just described. I don't think I have ever had a serious problem on a cast. Yes some of the dogs I have hunted against made me wonder why the owners fed them but heck they are feeding them and paying their enty fees. Competition hunting is a lot of fun but I feel you have to keep it in perspective with what coonhunting is all about and how the hounds winning the hunts are performing.

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Registered: Aug 2003
Location: Pa.
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Oldtimer,I couldn't agree more.I've been to about fifteen nighthunts,enough to figure it ain't for me.In all those casts I didn't see but maybe one dog that could Honestly tree a coon.They were mostly straight line dogs who liked to put as much distance betwween them an their handler as possible.The hunts I was on were like a sad,sad joke.I never saw so much BS in my life.cheating,lieing,fighting,worthless hollow titled hounds.

Some people are greedy,let coon hit $40.00 again.Then you'll see LOTS more hide hunters.The same ones that do whatever it takes to get a dog titled.Just my opinion.

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Last edited by cndgmn on 08-23-2003 at 02:29 AM

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Registered: Jun 2003
Location: Illinois
Posts: 2967

Jim, a sharp handler with a "me too" dog will beat an honest handler with an honest coondog everytime. I know of a Grand Nite Champion here in Illinois that can't move a track 100' on her own. But she will bark at something to get a strike, me too a coondog and then try to run him off of a tree but is light broke enough not to fight when the judge gets to the tree. And, she is getting bred everytime she comes in. I have never been hunting with any of the dogs you mentioned but I have a buddy that hunted with 1 of them for 2 years off and on. He has never spoken very highly of the dog as being a coondog. From his description, I would not hunt him if he was a gift. As for new hunters, the LAST cast I was on, 2 "professional handlers" were teaching the newbie how to circle a slick tree. I had the same thing happen time after time so that I just quit going. But, I have some friends that love it, so to each their own.

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Registered: Jun 2003
Location: Minnesota
Posts: 1076

>GayleFlowers<
>I don't see the kind of junk dog's you guy's are talking about in hunt's <
Me neither.
Maybe it's my imagination but, seems like I see a lot of good dogs now.
As I remember it, when I started hunting there were a lot more duds out there.

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bruce ordway

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Registered: Jun 2003
Location: Minnesota
Posts: 1076

>dogs who liked to put as much distance betwween them an their handler as possible<
Not everybodies cup of tea for sure.
But, some nights I like a dog like this.
Some nights..

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bruce ordway

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Registered: Jun 2003
Location: Cartersville, Ga.
Posts: 337

I have seen a lot of what you guys are talking about, lack of dog, tough handler,etc. I love drawing those idiots! A coondog is only beat by another coondog. I f a me-too dog is beating you, you need another dog. Look at the end of the lead. If you brought a coondog you will be just fine. Stand up to the sharp handler. They can't beat your coondog unless two other handlers help. If you draw three that out vote you, go home. You are done. But if you will spend the time in the woods to make a coondog, put out the effort to train it right; then take that coondog to a hunt and let someone screw you out of it: YOU are the problem. If you are smart enough to train a coondog you should be able to handle the rest. A me-too dog needs something to happen to me-too on. If your dog is too slow to strike or tree that a me-too dog takes it you are not there yet. If they won't stay at the tree, you are not done. A dog that strikes and trees a coon everytime that it is cast is dang hard to beat. But slow, timid. dogs and handlers are not. They have to be fast enough to take first strike and first tree and stay. If they can honestly do that, the dogs you are drawing are not the problem. If they can do that there usually is no problem. Check the end of the lead. If that is o.k. check the other end of the lead. Most hunts are fun if you brought the correct dog. There is the exception, it is normally three other handlers. But that don't happen much.

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Registered: Jun 2003
Location: WILMER ALABAMA
Posts: 159

COMP. DOGS V. HIDE DOGS: I WANT MY DOG TO BE ABLE TO WIN IN HUNTS OR SHOW ME COONS CONSISANTLY. IVE SEEN DOGS THAT COULD WIN IN HUNTS AND WERE GOOD PLEASURE DOGS. BUT LIKE EVERYTHING ELSE THERE ARE EXCEPTIONS. IN THE 60'S I HUNTED WITH SOME OF THE BEST HOUNDS IN THE COONHUNTING WORLD BUT SOME PEOPLE MAY NOT THINK SO. 2 OF THESE DOGS WENT ON TO WIN THE WORLD HUNT. WERE THEY EVER BEATEN YES MORE THAN ONCE. THEY WERE PLEASURE HUNTED AND COMP. HUNTED. I WANT MY HOUND TO HUNT FOR ME. NOT ME HUNTING MY HOUND. I AGREE SOME HAVE BRED FOR GO YONDER GET TREED BUT THEY DONT SEEN TO BE ABLE TO DO ANYTHING WITH A COLD FEEDER TRACK. SOME OF THESE DOGS RUN SLAP OVER A TRACK RIGHT IN FRONT OF THEM THEY ARE IN SUCH A HURRY TO GET GONE. I WANT MY DOG TO TREE THE FIRST TRACK HE COMES TO AND I DONT HAVE TO WALK SO FAR. HAVE WE BRED THE TRACK COMPLETLY OUT OF SOME DOGS? I BELIEVE SO. I KNOW OF SOME NITE CHAMPS. NOW THAT WAIT ON A LOCATE AND MOVE IN AND LOCK DOWN ON THE TREE REGARDLESS IF THERE IS COON OR NOT. I AGREE WITH SOME OF EVERYTHING OF WHAT WAS POSTED ON THIS SUBJECT BOTH WAYS. BUT LETS PUT THE TRACK BACK IN OUR HOUNDS. I HUNT FOR THE LOVE OF THIS GOOD SPORT BUT I LIKE TO WIN ALSO IF I HAVE THE DOG POWER. ITS HARD TO BEAT GOOD DOG POWER NIGHT AFTER NIGHT.

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Registered: Jun 2003
Location: Underwood in.
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quote:

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Originally posted by cndgmn
Oldtimer,I couldn't agree more.I've been to about fifteen nighthunts,enough to figure it ain't for me.In all those casts I didn't see but maybe one dog that could Honestly tree a coon.They were mostly straight line dogs who liked to put as much distance betwween them an their handler as possible.The hunts I was on were like a sad,sad joke.I never saw so much BS in my life.cheating,lieing,fighting,worthless hollow titled hounds.

Some people are greedy,let coon hit $40.00 again.Then you'll see LOTS more hide hunters.The same ones that do whatever it takes to get a dog titled.Just my opinion.

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