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roughcreek
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Registered: Aug 2006
Location: munfordville ky.
Posts: 1166

rule question

3 dogs treed, 5 minutes is up tree is dead. 4th dog is treed & at same place when cast arrives. it is a hole not a tree. how do you score 4th dog ? do you score this like a tree & minus 4th dogs tree ?

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05-31-2009 06:34 PM

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Maniac
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Re: rule question

quote:
Originally posted by roughcreek
3 dogs treed, 5 minutes is up tree is dead. 4th dog is treed & at same place when cast arrives. it is a hole not a tree. how do you score 4th dog ? do you score this like a tree & minus 4th dogs tree ?

3 dogs get + strike points & tree if coon seen and the 4 hound get + strike points only. no minus

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05-31-2009 06:50 PM

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longshot
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Registered: Mar 2006
Location: Southwest Missouri
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My understanding is yes the dog would be minused under the new rule. If a handler trees his dog AFTER the 5 is up ,, it is considered a split. The dog has to be separate.. He is minus 125 for tree and his strike position is ruled with 4(d).

A person should not tree after the 5 is up unless you know for sure that they are split.

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05-31-2009 06:51 PM

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Dan Reuter
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Registered: Jun 2007
Location: SW Wisconsin
Posts: 286

Minus 125. Any tree call taken after tree is closed is taken as a split. How do you know dog did not pull to other dogs at the hole? He was treed after the 5 minutes so it is a split tree no questions.

*(k) Any dogs declared treed after five minutes expires and tree is closed; call will be accepted as a split tree. If dog is on closed tree when judge arrives, tree points will be minused. Strike points scored in accordance with 4(d).

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05-31-2009 06:52 PM

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Dan Reuter
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Registered: Jun 2007
Location: SW Wisconsin
Posts: 286

Re: Re: rule question

quote:
Originally posted by Maniac
3 dogs get + strike points & tree if coon seen and the 4 hound get + strike points only. no minus

Why? If the coon is seen wouldn't the dog coming in late be minused strike as well for leaving it's split tree and covering with a coon seen?

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05-31-2009 06:56 PM

Cody Carroll
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Registered: Aug 2008
Location: Norfolk Naval Base, Norfolk, VA
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you minus the tree points according to rule 4. (k)
*(k) Any dogs declared treed after five minutes expires and tree is closed; call will be accepted as a split tree. If dog is on closed tree when judge arrives, tree points will be minused. Strike points scored in accordance with 4(d).

then circle his strike according to rule 4. (d)
(d) If dog declared treed, after five minutes has elapsed no additional dog can be declared treed at that particular tree but if they come in to tree will get minus on track and nothing on tree if coon is seen.

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05-31-2009 07:01 PM

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ransom1
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Registered: May 2009
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answer

4th dog gets minus if coon is seen. basicly 4th dog cannot get anything but minused if coon is seen,or nothing if coon isnt seenhe can also get scratched or minused if off game is seen,depending on the situation,nt ch or reg cast.

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05-31-2009 07:02 PM

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longshot
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Registered: Mar 2006
Location: Southwest Missouri
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Re: answer

quote:
Originally posted by ransom1
4th dog gets minus if coon is seen. basicly 4th dog cannot get anything but minused if coon is seen,or nothing if coon isnt seenhe

His tree points are minused. It makes no differance if coon is seen or not. He was split treed..

His strike points would be determined on what is seen or not seen at the hole.

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05-31-2009 07:12 PM

Herbie Manns
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Posts: 72

answer

ransom1 is right

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05-31-2009 07:18 PM

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Rip
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Registered: Jun 2003
Location: Morrison TN
Posts: 4927

Re: Re: rule question

quote:
Originally posted by Maniac
3 dogs get + strike points & tree if coon seen and the 4 hound get + strike points only. no minus

I don't know if they have had an official ruling for this since they changed the "dog is split" rule, but this is the way it was always scored before.

I wouldn't be suprised if it isn't still this way because this is not a tree, it's a hole and it has it's own set of rules (remember you can go score a hole without ever treeing a dog).

I don't know how they will rule on it, but if they don't have already they will need an official ruling because holes have always had SEPARATE tree rules than trees do (don't have to tree but if you do you can get those plused if you see the coon, dogs coming in late were NEVER penalized because it was a hole, if they came in after the 5 they still had their strike eligible for scoring depending on what was in the hole etc).

I agree that IF we didn't already have a whole different set of rules to use after you discover it is a hole then the dog would be minused just like a tree, but we DO have that whole different set of rules and only UKC can determine if you change anything after adding the "closed tree" rule.

Again, it makes sense that you "split treed" the dog and would get minused tree points for leaving the tree, but UKC has always recognized that holes are not actual trees. Heck you can honestly believe dogs are split when one has his head IN the hole and the others are outside, sounds like the one in the hole is much, much deeper than the others. (absolutely no way you can minus his strike no matter what though, coon was seen and the dog was at a hole so strike would be plused no matter what)

I wonder what the official word is/will be if they haven't ruled on this before?

PS, the origional question isn't really clear if the dog was DECLARED treed or just happened to be there and activly treeing when the cast arrived. That would change everything and take away the "split tree" aspect and I am positive no minus would be given just for being there since he doesn't have to be declared treed to have his strike points plused.

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05-31-2009 07:20 PM

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georgef072007
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minus tree points

Score strike points accordingly

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05-31-2009 07:21 PM

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longshot
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Registered: Mar 2006
Location: Southwest Missouri
Posts: 2057

The treed points are minused , no question about that...

As for the strike points , I can see where some of you think he would be eligible for plus strike with a seen coon in a hole.

I suppose that would fall under rule 3(b) Dogs not declared treed to recieve plus strike points only..

Because it is a hole and not a tree , the dog would be eligible for plus strike points , right? It does not matter that the 5 is up on a hole under rule 3 (B).

If it WAS a tree , he would be minued strike for coming in late with coon seen.

In this case he would be 125- for leaving a split tree and scored plus strike if coon is seen in hole and he is there before judge arrives.

Whew , my brain is tired.

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05-31-2009 07:27 PM

Rip
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Registered: Jun 2003
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Posts: 4927

quote:
Originally posted by longshot
The treed points are minused , no question about that...

As for the strike points , I can see where some of you think he would be eligible for plus strike with a seen coon in a hole.

I suppose that would fall under rule 3(b) Dogs not declared treed to recieve plus strike points only..

Because it is a hole and not a tree , the dog would be eligible for plus strike points , right? It does not matter that the 5 is up on a hole under rule 3 (B).

If it WAS a tree , he would be minued strike for coming in late with coon seen.

In this case he would be 125- for leaving a split tree and scored plus strike if coon is seen in hole and he is there before judge arrives.

Whew , my brain is tired.

And again I say I agree with you EXCEPT, as you posted above we have a completely different set of rules for dogs in holes and declared treed at holes than we do for trees. Like you posted here, if the dog comes in after the 5 and a coon is seen in a tree his strike is minused, but at a hole he gets his strike plussed even if he comes in after the 5.

This may, or may not be a similar situation as UKC has always recognized a difference in a tree and a hole, even noting that only one dog has to show the end of the track for all dogs in the vicinity to get their strike circled/plused etc. So, UKC will have to decide if this is one of those instances, or if the dog is indeed minused his tree points even though dogs at the same hole can legitimately sound like they are hundreds of yards apart and seem legitimately split.

It just depends on what UKC has said or will say on this one.

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05-31-2009 07:33 PM

Maniac
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Registered: Feb 2008
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Re: Re: Re: rule question

quote:
Originally posted by longshot
I dont believe that is correct. What do you do with his tree points? He was declared treed.

IT DOESNT SAY THEY ARE TREED ON A TREE ITSAID THREE DOGS ARE TREE IN A HOLE IF THE 4 DOG WASNT DECLARE TREED IN THE HOLE AND IS THEIR WHEN YOU GET AND COON IS SEEN THREE DOGS GET + STRIKE AND TREE AND THE 4 GET JUST STRIKE POINTS + THIS FALL UNDER A HOLE NOT A TREE. IF IT WAS A TREE HE WOULD GET MINUS ON HIS STRIKE IF COON SEEN.

Last edited by Maniac on 05-31-2009 at 07:40 PM

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05-31-2009 07:37 PM

longshot
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Registered: Mar 2006
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Re: Re: Re: Re: rule question

quote:
Originally posted by Maniac
IT DOESNT SAY THEY ARE TREED ON A TREE ITSAID THREE DOGS ARE TREE IN A HOLE IF THE 4 DOG WASNT DECLARE TREED IN THE HOLE AND IS THEIR WHEN YOU GET AND COON IS SEEN THREE DOGS GET + STRIKE AND TREE AND THE 4 GET JUST STRIKE POINTS + THIS FALL UNDER A HOLE NOT A TREE. IF IT WAS A TREE HE WOULD GET MINUS ON HIS STRIKE IF COON SEEN.

You are correct.. I was assuming that the dog was declared treed , when he said ''4th dog was treed''' ... My bad....

If the dog WAS declared treed , my post applys.. It does not say for sure though in the original post.

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Last edited by longshot on 05-31-2009 at 07:45 PM

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05-31-2009 07:43 PM

Maniac
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LONGSHOT ITS OK EVERYBODY MAKES MISTAKES. HAVE A GOOD DAY

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05-31-2009 07:47 PM

Cody Carroll
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Location: Norfolk Naval Base, Norfolk, VA
Posts: 669

Re: rule question

quote:
Originally posted by roughcreek
3 dogs treed, 5 minutes is up tree is dead. 4th dog is treed & at same place when cast arrives. it is a hole not a tree. how do you score 4th dog ? do you score this like a tree & minus 4th dogs tree ?

the 4th dog was treed... it says do you score this like a tree and minus 4th dogs tree..... that has to mean that the 4th dog was declared treed

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05-31-2009 08:07 PM

JiM
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First tell me did the handler call that 4th dog treed or didn't he? It just says " 4th dog is treed and at the same place when cast arrives". So I need to know was the dog DECLARED TREED by his handler or was he just found there treeing when the cast arrives? That makes all the difference on how to score this one.

If the handler treed his dog after the tree was closed and he is with the dogs when the judge arrives, he is minused 125 under rule 4(k).
If the 4th dog was not declared treed, his strike points are plussed if the coon is seen and strike circled if the hole is circled. Rule 5(a).

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05-31-2009 08:25 PM

Maniac
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Re: Re: rule question

quote:
Originally posted by Cody Carroll
the 4th dog was treed... it says do you score this like a tree and minus 4th dogs tree..... that has to mean that the 4th dog was declared treed

4th dog is treed & at same place when cast arrives

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05-31-2009 08:26 PM

Rip
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quote:
Originally posted by JiM
First tell me did the handler call that 4th dog treed or didn't he? It just says " 4th dog is treed and at the same place when cast arrives". So I need to know was the dog DECLARED TREED by his handler or was he just found there treeing when the cast arrives? That makes all the difference on how to score this one.

If the handler treed his dog after the tree was closed and he is with the dogs when the judge arrives, he is minused 125 under rule 4(k).
If the 4th dog was not declared treed, his strike points are plussed if the coon is seen and strike circled if the hole is circled. Rule 5(a).

Like I said Jim, your rules are correct, your application is correct, the dog isn't being minused for being at the hole, it's being minused for not being split which is what the rules say you are doing now if you declare a dog treed after the five.

However, given that it is a new rule, and that UKC has a complete different set of rules for holes and trees, and the precident that has been set in the past, this being a new rule it is one that has the chance of being in the category of "whoah, that's not the intent of the rule" things. Especially since dogs in the ground can sound like they are split three ways till Sunday. I can't count the times people have tried to split tree dogs under the old rules with them in the ground LOL.

Remember we went through this with the stationary rule, they clarified that the dog could only be scratched if it was treed at a tree not a hole because dogs don't always tree the same at a hole, may leave etc.

That could happen here as well due to the sound effects from being in the ground and it not being a tree etc. It may not, it's their ball they can do what they want with it, but just sayin not to forget that is a real possibility here.

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05-31-2009 08:53 PM

JiM
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Rip, if you tree your dog after the 5 is up, that dog better be split. If it is with the other dogs it is minused. It makes absolutely no difference where they are. Tree, hole, bulldoze pile, fence, it don't matter. 4(k) minuses them 125. I know 4(k) says "If dog is on closed tree when judge arrives" but I think Allen will say tree, hole, etc is all the same to 4(k). If I'm wromg we can find out Monday mourning.

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05-31-2009 09:01 PM

Rip
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quote:
Originally posted by JiM
Rip, if you tree your dog after the 5 is up, that dog better be split. If it is with the other dogs it is minused. It makes absolutely no difference where they are. Tree, hole, bulldoze pile, fence, it don't matter. 4(k) minuses them 125. I know 4(k) says "If dog is on closed tree when judge arrives" but I think Allen will say tree, hole, etc is all the same to 4(k). If I'm wromg we can find out Monday mourning.

Jim, I wasn't disagreeing with you.

On the contrary I said your logic and rules were right and was agreeing with you..

Just said that with UKC you gotta wait till they say cause sometimes it goes 180 against what is written and goes with intent.

Look at the "option to recast rule". The rules clearly state that a dog has to be struck in for you to have the option. The official interpretation is exactly opposite of this and says that it was poor wording and that the intent was if a dog was competing for strike.

I was just saying that this situation has the potential to be the same way, especially with the precident that has been set in regards to scoring trees and holes completely differently.

That's all I said, I agree that if they go strictly by how the rules are written that IMO you and others have applied the rules correctly, dog minused tree for not being split, plus strike for being at the hole.

BUT as we have seen several times in the past, if it's new you just have to wait till they clarify some things.

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05-31-2009 09:13 PM

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