Registered: Jan 2006
Location: South Hiram,Maine
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I WAS WOUDERING WHY THERE ARE NOT TWO AGE GROUPS FOR YOUTH BENCH SHOWS. I THINK THE U.K.C. WOULD HAVE TWO AGE GROUPS FOR THE SHOWS LIKE THE NIGHT HUNTS. IT SEEMS UNFAIR THAT A 10YR OLD HANDLER SHOULD SHOW WITH 17YR OLD HANDLER.ANY IN PUT OR COMENTS.

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BTT

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seems to be only right, But I will keep my big mouth shut on this one .

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Registered: Mar 2006
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I'm not at all involved (my kids wouldn't DREAM of handling)... But I used to be a riding instructor... there is a HUGE difference in age with kids. Having watched some of the kids handle.... I think some of the olderkids can woop some of the adults pretty easily....
It would be a good idea to have two divisions for kids if it is possible.
JMHO, Heather WIlliam

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Registered: Jun 2003
Location: NE Ohio
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Well not to make anyone mad or anything, but here's my view.

It's a UKC YOUTH "COONHOUND" BENCH SHOW.
The Dog should be the one that's Judged, not the Youth. (Whether they be 5 or 17 yrs old)
Yes older kids have a advantage of being able to pick a dog up to the bench and get them on their toes, etc. Where a younger kid can't lift the dog.
Just to let you know I have shown dogs with some younger kids in the class, (under 10 yrs old), and dang! They can put some adults to shame with the skills they have with setting the dog up. Don't underestimate the younger kids, they know their stuff.

I would like to hear more on the Subject and I'll keep watching this topic. If you have something to share about it also, but don't want to post, please PM or E-mail me.

Laura Bell

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very good post

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I agree with you that the HOUND should be the one judged. I think the problem is that some kids may not be able to set up hte dog well or gait it well. (I am ASSUMING the kids have to gait the dogs???? I've been "watching" the kids handle thru pix!..). SO, if the hound cant be set up or moved well it is harder to judge the comformation of that particular hound. I agree there are some little peanuts out there who have a great handling ability real young. BUT I bet a mojority of the Little kids showing have a harder time. SInce it wouldn't be as easy to seperate into Beginner and Advanced divisions it may work to seperate by age????? Even beyond the Lifting of the hound to the bench the handling itself can be hard for a less mature kid. If we get into maturity... that can reach right up to the adult divisions LOL
I think it is a good subject and I agree with you Camopup to a degree... and THere are ALOT of adults who could learn LOT from the kids, even the little ones! I am not sure that the Kennel club can handle the divisions. More divisions makes more work. I know as an adult if I am finally forced to do a bench show, which may happen with our new pup, I will have a lot harder time than many. I aam Scared to death to "perform" in front of people... so even if the pup is trained perfectly and I don't have to do a darned thing...my show nerves will be a Huge handicap I will be thinking what if I trip? what if I faint? and the nerves will transfer to the hound.... I know this from having to do this with the horses.LOL... I'm an adult and I am sort of willing to have to do this (once...I made a deal I would do it ONCE).
I guess it will be a complicated issue. I am interested in hearing a LOT more, esp. from people who do the bench shows, both old and young.
I have to add that I am AMAZED at the skill some of these kids have in the coonhound world. When I read about the young handlers in the hunts it makes me BEAM! I Love to hear of children having successes.
Keep up the great work Kids! Happyhunting, Heather

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that youth can show some of the top coonhounds, without being listed as owner.

I think that showing dogs should be a leadership task for the youth. Since UKC doesn't require the youth to be listed as an owner, a lot of them connect with top show dogs and beat those that do own their dog, train, care, and try very hard to make it....

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Registered: Jun 2003
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StackemUP

As many shows that I have judged and went to for the youth, I have not seen that happen very often. I know my grandson shows Wayne Steele's grand champion, but Jon has had him for the past two years. At this point he is the only one that can handle the hound. I agree with Laura, it is sometimes harder for the little ones to show against the older youth, but plenty of them have beaten the older ones. At the youth events I have been to, if a youth can not get the hound on the bench, someone else puts him up, but then it is the youth that does the rest.

I used to think the same way, but the more I go and watch or help with, the youth needs to learn to win and lose like the rest of us. Sometimes it is a hard lesson, but the more they learn the better they get. and most of the youth aren't as upset as some adults when their dog isn't picked. It is amazing how they get the dogs down, give them a pet and go on their way. They don't grumble and moan all the way to the truck. THE SHOW IS DONE AND OVER WITH. At this time I don't think I would want to show against some of the youth out there including my grandson.

Besides can you think of how much money it would cost to buy double trophies and time to do two shows.

Jackie Carpenter

Last edited by jackiec on 10-23-2006 at 07:15 PM

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Registered: May 2006
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That they should be split up. Although my daughter (who is seven) tries real hard to stack our dog, she physically can not hold it's tail and correct any head movement at the same time. She won best female of show at the Kentucky Youth Championship so I am not crying over spilled milk. I am attaching some photo's so you can see another little girl struggling to stack and hold her dog in the background as well.

Zoe is determined to show against adults now and I am going to let her. It will only give her experience so when she is my age she will have TONS of experience (look out Amanda Alexander)! Most shows have a kids show where everyone is going to get a trophy. I am greatful that they have kids shows so don't get me wrong just an observation.

Most judges take that stuff into account but it would be hard to divy up the age groups. There is a big difference between 10 and 17 as well as 5 and 10, and a huge difference between 7 and 17.

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Registered: Sep 2003
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I'll try to add something.

From the stand point of a club putting on the youth shows and hunts, it's much easier to separate out the age groups in the casts for the hunt.

In the show though, as Jackie pointed out it would be double expense for trophies to judge 2 separate shows, NOT that any club or organization is doing youth events to make money or worry about these kinds of expenses. We do it for the kids, plain and simple. I just mention that as it would be a consequence to consider at the club level if they split the youth shows.

But also from my perspective in Ky, our state youth show isn't so large as to give all the youth in either age category any real measure of competition. Would it mean as much to a kid to win a class if he/she had no competion? Perhaps, but what would they learn or gain from it?

In addition to licensed youth shows, we always have a Kids Fun Show where every kid gets a trophy and a prize of some sort. This is good for the real young ones. They enjoy it, but when they get old enough, they want to compete for real and that's where the youth events start for them.

I guess I just look at as a rite of passage; something they'll all have to go through and when they get to be the older youth, they'll reap the benefits of all their years of experience.

Just so everyone knows, I have a 5 year old daughter and 4 year old son (heaven help me! :-) and I hope someday they'll want to come up through the ranks. So, I'll be faced with exactly the kind of thing when they're young that Zoe goes through. (I was privileged to judge her in Kentucky and she is a fine little handler.)I'm sure it'll grate on me a bit to see them struggle against an obviously older more experienced kid. But, that's how it's gonna have to be for them so they will learn.

Merely my opinion.
Everyone have a great day,
Penny

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Registered: May 2006
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And again both Zoe and I are very thankful that we live in Kentucky and that she can compete in an event such as this. You are a very good judge and I thought that it was great how you told all of the kids that they were doing a good job, despite the fact that some could not stack the dogs properly. The fact that they can all compete, even in a for fun show is great.

You are correct, it is a right of passage. Actually I was looking at Terry Vance's little girl when it came through my mind that there should be different age groups. I wanted to help her lift that dog and stack it! However she is tough and can hold her own and came though. It is those experiences at that young age that will give them an edge as handlers when they get older.

You make very good points about the costs associated with the trophies etc. Again, I am thankful that there is such a thing as youth events and appreciate all that everyone does for our youth (I wish all events went like the Youth ones). I just have a soft spot for the little ones. The fact that they are at an event and are trying really yanks at my heart.

Good perspective Penny, we appreciate your efforts.

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I am one of the 17 year old handler. I think the way they have it now is working. I have been beattin by younger kinds before. I think that it is awsome how well they do presenting there hounds. Some set em up better then i can LOL. with the younger youth if they need assistent it is there. like getting the hound up and down from the bench. And like Laura said. The kids are not being judged on how well they set there dog up. Its how the hound meets its breed standerd. With letting the younger youth being able to show agains 17 year olds, it gets them ready to compeat againts the adults. When i starte out in 2002 i jumped right in with the adults and didnt enter my first youth show untill a few summers after that. My first show was the 2002 Ohio State Gov Cub which i ended up winning best of breed redBone male. Beating 2 older handlers.

So i dont think there should be age groups for the youth shows. This makes it funner so when a yunger handler beats an older handler they can be prode about themselfs and if they dont win... it makes them work just a little bit harder.

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looks like the benches are to tall for the shorter
kids.i dont thank a kid should get use to getting
beat just work harder at what they want to do.
i was always taught if you work hard enough
you will win some day.

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Registered: Dec 2005
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I think a child should practice, practice, practice with a dog that will be for their showing purposes only. The kid and dog will get used to each other and learn from each other. I think it makes them both more patient and if they practice each day, they should have no problem in setting up at the end of the week. Benches are to be altered for height in youth bench shows to accomodate young handlers, I think. This will all give a child experience and I think that is the key. The more experienced they get, the more skilled they will become. Not to mention an inseperable bond between the dog and handler. Laura and Jarrod, I agree with you. The DOG should be judged, not the handler. That is not always the case, but yet another hard lesson learned for young handlers. My female will jump on the bench and pretty much put her feet in place for you. I started from scrath with her at 6 months old. Neither of us had EVER shown before and it just goes to show you what 15 minutes every day can do. I am also 17 and love to see younger kids win. It gives them such a boost in confidence. All that said. KIDS-please don't give up on yourselves or your dogs, just PRACTICE!! As the saying goes, practice makes perfect! lol

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I don't know much about the youth shows but they seem to be running smoothly.

The DOG not the HANDLER should be judged.

I'm sure if I showed in a youth show i could easly be beat by a younger handler. My dog can stand great some days and horrible others and sometimes I can handle better than others. If nothing else the youngesters that can't handle as good will get better with all the practice they get.

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quote:

---

Originally posted by StackemUp
that youth can show some of the top coonhounds, without being listed as owner.

I think that showing dogs should be a leadership task for the youth. Since UKC doesn't require the youth to be listed as an owner, a lot of them connect with top show dogs and beat those that do own their dog, train, care, and try very hard to make it....

---

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Registered: Jul 2003
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I don't think there is a need for an age division in the youth shows. We have been to many youth shows over the last few years and they seem to run just fine the way they are now.

My youngest daughter (for example), Joann, started showing when she was 9 years old and has had to learn how to win and how to loose. She is now 14 yrs old. She recently won BMS, Redbone female, and Champion male at the 2006 UKC Youth Nationals. She also just won BFS, Queen of Show and Overall Show Champion at the 06 Florida State Championship. All w/ a pup that she bred, raised, and handled. She has plans to show at the Grand American and Winter Classic in the open shows next year.
About 3 years ago she showed at Winter Classic in the Champion TW Female class and pairs w/ me. She didn't win, but she had a great time and wasn't a bit intimidated about such a big show. (this was the year that UKC made a big video production of it).
I hope that she continues to grow as a youth handler and houndsman. And keeps an interest in this sport.

UKC did have short benches at the Youth Nationals which helped the smaller handlers.

I to do not agree on the youth that go around borrowing Top Show hounds from whom ever they can get them from.
I had a phone call one year, all the way from 4 states over, from someone wanting to borrow our Rick male for a youth show.
This doesn't happen often, but it is done.
To me the kids that own their hounds and work w/ them daily, have a huge advantage. As they know that hound.

"Joann" winning 2003 Florida State Youth Overall Show Champion w/ her own dog.

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Here is my thoughts on it .The bench show is more about the dog and its confimation there for who is showing or age should not matter plus you would have 2 sets of points on bench the night hunts is done cause it is a disadvantage for a 7 year old to hunt against a 17 year old. So it is more of a level playing field

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being a judge here and watching other judges in our area...we all strive to help the youth ,we have youth in both age groups showing in regular UKC open shows,,,,if a youth is havin a little problem setting up there dog. there is nuthin in the rule book that says the judge cant help set the dog up so he or she can get a better look at the dog.... that being said..i have also set up an unexperienced adult set the dog up .Its about the Dogs Confirmations......during the time before the show kids are setting there hounds up (adults to) there is always an experienced person or judge helping and teaching them how to set up a hound.. ive been head to head with young kids and get beat.. JUDGE THE DOG NOT THE PERSOn!

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quote:

---

Originally posted by Autumn Clements
I don't know much about the youth shows but they seem to be running smoothly.

The DOG not the HANDLER should be judged.

I'm sure if I showed in a youth show i could easly be beat by a younger handler. My dog can stand great some days and horrible others and sometimes I can handle better than others. If nothing else the youngesters that can't handle as good will get better with all the practice they get.

---

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Well since I posted that(its got to be a couple yrs since this thread was posted) I have since been to a youth event, the younger kids might find it harder to show than the older kids but at YN this past summer it seemed like they could all handle the older compition, it is the dog that is being judged not handler.

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