Registered: Jun 2003
Location: NE Ohio
Posts: 3847

This happened while pleasure hunting this past summer. I never asked about it since I figured the answer would be SCRATCHED, but since we haven’t been hunting in awhile I’m bored.


2-dog cast.
Dogs A & B Strike right off the leash and continue to carry the track deeper in the woods.
Then it goes dead silent (We thought, Here comes the tree!)
Dog A lets out the freakiest bark we’ve ever heard.
It goes silent again for a few seconds.
Dog A again lets out some very strange barks and the Handler says something isn’t right and wants to proceed to the area the dog is in.
Dog A isn’t moving, and Dog B cannot be heard anywhere now.
Cast proceeds closer to Dog A who is still barking.
Closing in we smell something dead.
The lights are shined on Dog A and there is Dog B also, but not saying a word.
The object Dog A is barking at is a long Dead Pig. Dog B is more interested in trying to take a chunk out of the Dead Pig.
Dog A immediately runs to its handler once they arrive.
They obviously didn’t track the thing, but they were still found at it.
Now what do you do? Scratch one, both, or none at all?

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Registered: Jun 2003
Location: N.E. Arkansas
Posts: 1042

They clearly didn't run the pig- He was dead. No scratch there! I'd say minus the strike points.

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Loyd McIntire

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Registered: Jul 2003
Location: Buffalo, NY
Posts: 2147

you would of never moved in in a hunt. so either they keep the 8 going, or they get minused.

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Registered: Jun 2003
Location: N.E. Arkansas
Posts: 1042

quote:

---

Originally posted by Philip
you would of never moved in in a hunt. so either they keep the 8 going, or they get minused.

---

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Loyd McIntire

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Registered: Jul 2003
Location: Buffalo, NY
Posts: 2147

well unless the dog treeing and not treed rule, or if all agree they are in hole, why would you move in. I think they prob ran a coon who was eating the dead pig, and decided on a bite themselves.

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Registered: Dec 2008
Location: Leon,Kansas
Posts: 256

they obviosley did not run the hog. The coon was possibly eating the pig as well, yet no way to know. Id say put it to a vote if you could not agree delete the points and move to new spot.

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A few possum dogs and .22 rifle thats dead on!

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Registered: Dec 2006
Location: Montana
Posts: 934

Pretty simple, both dogs were struck in and both dogs quit the track, dogs are minused on track.

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Registered: May 2008
Location: central Ia.
Posts: 661

I vote minus

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Registered: Jun 2005
Location: Prince Edward Island,Canada
Posts: 4589

Theres no way they ran that pig in there so I wouldn't say scratched, but i'd minus them for quitting their track.

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Registered: Apr 2004
Location: West Virginnia
Posts: 156

Minus if registered. Scratched if Nt CH or Gr Nt.

Stationary should have been put on dog first then go in and check if it's treed. If not score accordingly.

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Registered: Nov 2006
Location: Disputanta, Virginia
Posts: 1524

Why would you scratch them for eating?

If the pig was replaced with a pile of Purina, would you still say scratch?

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Registered: Aug 2007
Location: north central okla
Posts: 358

minus

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the color won, t tree a coon but its true i like blue

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Registered: Apr 2004
Location: West Virginnia
Posts: 156

WOULD YOU SCRATCH IF THEY STRUCK AND RAN A TRACK THEN WALKED IN ON THEM AND IT WAS A POSSUM.

IF IT WERE A COON IM SURE THE STRIKE WOULD BE PLUSSED

RULES SAY - FOR REG. AND SCRATCHED FOR CH. FOR OFF GAME OR LIVESTOCK.

IMO THE DOGS RAN A TRACK THAT ENDED AT THE DEAD PIG. IT'S A TOUGH BREAK BUT THATS THE WAY I SEE IT.

THERE ARE A LOT OF THINGS THAT COULD HAVE HAPPENED THERE. MAIN THING IS THYE WERE DOING WHAT THEY WERE NOT SUPPOSED TO DO.

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Registered: Dec 2006
Location: Montana
Posts: 934

Wow, I never thought this could be that difficult. Like I said before dogs are minused. You can't scratch them for eating a dead pig. Comparing a pig that has been dead for a long time to the dogs catching a possum on the ground is like comparing apples to oranges.

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Registered: Jun 2003
Location: Los Angeles, MN
Posts: 4236

I dont see a problem with a handler wanting to get closer to a dog that dosent sound right, they do risk taking minus if the dog comes in though.

The dog that came into the cast is minused, if the other dog is still eating, back away and let him eat...he either goes hunting or comes in also.

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Registered: Jun 2005
Location: Prince Edward Island,Canada
Posts: 4589

quote:

---

Originally posted by cooney
WOULD YOU SCRATCH IF THEY STRUCK AND RAN A TRACK THEN WALKED IN ON THEM AND IT WAS A POSSUM.

IF IT WERE A COON IM SURE THE STRIKE WOULD BE PLUSSED

RULES SAY - FOR REG. AND SCRATCHED FOR CH. FOR OFF GAME OR LIVESTOCK.

IMO THE DOGS RAN A TRACK THAT ENDED AT THE DEAD PIG. IT'S A TOUGH BREAK BUT THATS THE WAY I SEE IT.

THERE ARE A LOT OF THINGS THAT COULD HAVE HAPPENED THERE. MAIN THING IS THYE WERE DOING WHAT THEY WERE NOT SUPPOSED TO DO.

---

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Autumn Clements

'PR'LEAD'S MIDNITE SASSY
CFC CH Canadian GCH Multi Group Placing MBPIG BBPIG LEGACYK STANNYFIELD PRIME TIME (AKC & UKC Pointed)
BPIG MBBPIG WINDAMIRS RED LIGHT DISTRICT V AMBERLANE
LEGACYK DARE TO DREAM V CBLUES
LEGACYK WHITE AS A GHOST V CBLUES

Gone but not forgotten
GRNITECH GRCH PKC CH'PR'CLEMENTS' BLUE PRANCER
GRNITECH GRCH'PR'SPIKE'S TWILITE HOOKER
'PR'PRANCER'S GETTIN DOWN N DIRTY (PrancerxHooker)
NITECH CH’PR’BUELL’S BLUE ROCKY(Whitey x Spice)
CKC BBPIG MARIES BABY BREEZE

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Registered: Not Yet
Location:
Posts: N/A

You can't scratch them for livestock because dead pigs are not livestock, they are dead stock. And you can't scratch them for off game because dead pigs are not game. And you can't minus dog B because he didn't come in. 4(e)....minus for quitting a track when they quit and COME IN!

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Registered: Dec 2006
Location: Montana
Posts: 934

I don't know about 4e or any of the numbers but I do know the rules and if a dog was struck in and was seen eating a dead animal it will be minused if I am judging. Plain and simple it quit the track. If the judge isn't smart enough to minus it I will question the card and any decent master of hounds would minus it also. You can't tell me that if a dog was struck in and ran into the middle of a field and stood there for any amount of time in full view of the cast that it shouldn't be minused, even though it didn't come back to the cast. A little common sense goes a long way, it's too bad there is so little of it left in this world.

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Registered: Not Yet
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I'm telling you exactly that. The rules don't allow a dog to be minused for quitting a track unless the dog comes in. You can judge it anyway you want and you are welcome to replace the rules with your version of common sense and you can even talk the MOH into believeing you but when the formal complaint letter gets sent out to you, you find out that your version of common sense doesn't replace UKC rules and the rule is crystal clear. Try reading it sometime.

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Registered: Dec 2006
Location: Montana
Posts: 934

There is no version of common sense, it is what it is. You are correct on the reading of the rule for the most part. Since we are talking black and white, did you miss the part in that rule that says JUDGES DECISION? If the dog is standing at my feet eating a dead animal I consider him "in" the cast. A lot depends on the judge. I guess your way you would wait for the eight to get him. In the end I would bet the result would be the same.

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Montana Red Kennels - Redbones that catch game and hold it untill you get there.

Gr.Nt.Ch.Gr.Ch. 'PR' MT Red's Bobcat Bustin Billy

Nt.Ch.Ch. 'PR' MT Red's Coon Slammin Sage

Gr.Nt.Ch.Gr.Ch. 'PR' MT Red's Tree Bangin Buddy

Gr.Ch. 'PR' MT Red's Kim's Cat Crazy Maci

'PR' MT Red's Tree Ringin Rhea

(406)564-3061

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Registered: Jun 2003
Location: NE Ohio
Posts: 3847

So Rule 6-O can't be applied. So, now that you have Dog A you put the 8 on B, or see if Dog B's handler will take Minus to move deeper in the woods or to a new area?

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Registered: May 2007
Location: wv
Posts: 81

Kevin Jackson, If it is a hunting judge, the handler can call a cast vote to over turn the judge. So in reality a hunting judges decision means nothing, because it COULD be overturned by majority of cast. Yes if a dog comes in that is struck minus it. But you do not minus a dog that is struck and you walk in on it. I don't really understand why you would walk in on a dog or dogs while time is in. A time out should have been requested and possibly voted on and hunting judge over ruled. If a dog sounds wierd chances are somethings wrong, and no dogs life is worth put in danger for some points.

Also kevin you refered to a dog that runs in front of the cast and just stands there. Are you honestly saying that if a dog is struck, starts a cross a cut hay field, and stops in the field and starts winding a breeze, you would minus it, because it was within eyesight? if so, I hope someone from your club sees this and honestly questions your abilities as a judge.

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Registered: Feb 2007
Location:
Posts: 170

i don't know what you do as far as points go, or if you can by the rules minus the dog for quitting the track, but it seems to this simple man in eastern north carolina that either

a. They tracked that dead pig there.(possibly winding the rotten smell)

or

b. they were running something else (we will say a coon) and they quit the track to chew on/ bark at the pig.

it seems to me that if a dog is running a coon and stops to chew on some pig then he has quit the coon track.

as far as points i don't know if you can minus them or not. but common sense tells me (and i could be wrong) that they obviously by definition quit the track they were on or they tracked that pig there.

Just my two cents worth tho.

Jacob

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Registered: Dec 2006
Location: Montana
Posts: 934

You're right they can vote, that wasn't the question though. I would not have walked in on the dogs so that is irrelavent. I was just answering the question the way it was presented. If the dog was in danger most would call time out but if the dog was just booger barking that's no reason to call time out.As far as a dog standing in a field goes, once again a little common sense goes a long ways. I'm not talking about a dog stopping for a short time winding. I'm talking about a dog standing around for a period of time that is obviously not still on track. The dog has to be pretty close before I will minus it. Once again the rule reads judge's decision. My dog will be minused just like everyone else's. I judge consistantly and fairly and you don't know me so don't judge me. I have judged most of the casts that I have hunted in and I don't ever remember turning in a card with a question on it. You are more than welcome to contact my local club and ask about my judging ability and fairness. I would bet the great majority will tell you that I am strict but fair and qualified. I would love it if someone said I wasn't qualified to carry the card that way I wouldn't get stuck with it all the time.

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Montana Red Kennels - Redbones that catch game and hold it untill you get there.

Gr.Nt.Ch.Gr.Ch. 'PR' MT Red's Bobcat Bustin Billy

Nt.Ch.Ch. 'PR' MT Red's Coon Slammin Sage

Gr.Nt.Ch.Gr.Ch. 'PR' MT Red's Tree Bangin Buddy

Gr.Ch. 'PR' MT Red's Kim's Cat Crazy Maci

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Last edited by Kevin Jackson on 12-17-2008 at 04:05 PM

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Registered: Jun 2003
Location: Los Angeles, MN
Posts: 4236

Kevin,

Your right the dogs obviously quit the track. But that is beside the point.

"Judges descision" does not give him the authority to make up rules.

The rule is clearly writen, the judges job is to adhere to the rules as they are on the back of the card, not to agree or disagree with them.

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