Registered: Nov 2004
Location: Fresno Ohio
Posts: 2212

Had this happen on a cast once and have often wondered if I did it right?
Scenerio - 3 dog cast. All dogs are struck and trailing rabbit. Rabbit is seen by all cast members on the jump. Before the rabbit is circled all dogs trail to a tight woven fence. Dogs A and B make it thru while dog C continues to bark at the fence. Dogs A & B go into a check about 100 yards away and are drawn back to dog C barking at the fence.
Question - How would you score this? I know what I did and will explain later.
Some of the questions the handlers had were.
1. Can I go look for a hole? if so where?
2. Can we call interference?
3. Dog C should be minused for quitting track?
4. How can we go into a check with dog C barking?
5. Can I lift my dog over the fence?
6. Can we pluss the points?
Often times situations accure and a rulling needs to be made ASAP. You dont get 20 minutes to think about it. I did question my own ruling so we could get the MOH ruling. He was as cunfused as we were. LOL!!!

Suzette Sayre use to post these scenerios. I often enjoyed them and found at times they would happen on a cast. Suzette could always get ya thinking.

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Registered: Oct 2008
Location: Ohio
Posts: 287

If it was me judgeing i think i would have let the handler lift the dog over the fence.Im Sure this is not right,but i'd try to score lines.You cant minus dog c because he didnt quit the track he couldnt make it through the fence.If your going to minus anything then dogs a &b would be minused for quiting the track if they left the track and went back to the other dog at the fence.

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Registered: Oct 2008
Location: Ohio
Posts: 287

Sure would hate to be MOH on this one.

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Registered: Apr 2004
Location: Milton, WV
Posts: 2551

You could take a peek out where dogs a and b stopped forward progress.

-If a hole is found all would plus strikes majority seen the rabbit and put it in a hole.


However, if they lost it and just dropped back to check c....

-Minus all dogs for a blow up and chalk it up to a bad situation.

-Jack

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Registered: Nov 2007
Location: Crimora, VA
Posts: 399

Couldn't you minus dog C for pulling the other dogs away from the track because it was barking?

- Hunter Hall

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Registered: Nov 2004
Location: Fresno Ohio
Posts: 2212

OK here is what I did. Remember a decision needed to be made before going on.
I minused all dogs 50 because we couldnt find a hole where A & B last barked. I also gave dog C a warning for babbling. I questioned it and we caught the dogs and went on. MOH ruled with the judge.

Spurlock - I also wanted the handler to put the dog over the fence but one of the handlers said we couldnt do that it was assisting the hound. I believed he was right and would not allow it. It has happened a couple of times since and each time the handlers agreed to put the dog over the fence and go on.

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Registered: Oct 2008
Location: Ohio
Posts: 287

if a dog can not make it through the fence then wouldnt that bring in the place of refuge for the rabbit.

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Registered: Nov 2004
Location: Fresno Ohio
Posts: 2212

Not when 2 can get thru.

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Registered: Sep 2007
Location: NE OHIO
Posts: 832

Have to wonder how the dogs got through the tight woven fence. A dog that has run there before may know to run down to the creek bed and get under then run back down to where the rabbit went through. If so the dog quit the track to run down to the creek bed and get under the fence. Dogs should be minused if they quit the track. If they can't get through where the rabbit went through it should be considered refuge. If dog C was barking where the rabbit went through then it probably wasn't barking "where no track is evident" so the babbling warning would not apply. If it is running up and down the fence barking then the babbling rule would apply. If the dogs that got through the fence ended at a hole then score it accordingly. Remember that after they quit the track to run down and get through the fence they must be stuck back in on or before the 3rd bark at next available position. If a dog climbed over, under or through the fence where the rabbit went through it would be safe from being minused.
A cast can agree ahead of time that if the dogs trail to to a certain point that they must be caught and recast. Anyone who has found a dog dead caught up in a fence would likely agree to that.
Should there be a rule pertaining to fences?

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Registered: Nov 2004
Location: Fresno Ohio
Posts: 2212

If you hunt Indiana much (especially around Indy) they have alot of tight woven fences that rabbits love to cross. I have watched experienced hounds climb the fences and keep on going. In some cases a 13 inch hound gets thru the fence where a 15 inch cannot. In this case there was no way the place of refuge could have been called. We were in the middle of a fence row that bordered a open field. Dogs did not run up and down the fence to get across.
1. I couldnt see minusing the dog for quitting due to he didnt.
2. Couldnt pluss A & B because they didnt get a line or put it to a hole.
3. Dog C deserved some kind of punishment for dragging the pack back.
4. Dog A & B deserves minused for coming back.

Common sense told me to minus all dogs for progression (3 minutes) as for dog C that continued to barked without progression give warning for babbling.

Had we found a hole where A&B ended would you have plussed dog C strikes?
Can a fence be called endangerment? If so do Dog A & B get the chance to continue the track?
Dan is right you never want to see a hound hanging in a fence!!!

LOL!!! JUST THOUGHT I WOULD GET YA THINKING!!!

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Registered: Nov 2004
Location: Michigan
Posts: 9282

Do we really want/need a "fence" rule? It has been my experience, where woven wire fences are a normal part of the terrain, that most beagles can and do find a way to slip through a woven wire fence. Especially, with a little experience and the smarts to do it. Of course if they try to squeeze through close to the bottom of the fence they're probably not gonna make it.

I guess the point I'm trying to make is that the "hole" rule gets abused more than most would like to admit. Wouldn't a fence rule open the door for even more abuse and excuses?

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Registered: Oct 2007
Location: Churchville Va
Posts: 50

Sundown- I don't understand how you feel dog c should be pentalized for barking because he couldn't get thru the fence. When all the dog is doing is saying HELP I can't get thru not his fault that he is too big to get thru and someone had to put a fence in his way.lol I have dogs that can slide right thru without any trouble and some just can't get thru and we have alot of fences here. I was in a cast one time and had a dog try to get thru and got his head hung and was in danger of hanging himself I went to help him and the judge told me if I touched him I was scratched didn't want to put him over just didn't want to loose my hound!!

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Registered: Dec 2006
Location: Missouri
Posts: 305

Touchstonebeagle I would have to diagree with you on the part about dog quitting track if they go up and down fence trying to find a way thru. Mine had better be finding a way thru. Calvin

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Registered: Aug 2003
Location: Calhoun KY
Posts: 995

Now if this was a TRUE hunting Situation Would you just let the Dog get stuck by a fence or Would you pick your Dog up and put em over it?????
I Always had the thought that the H&H format was to represent the HUNTING scenario!!!!
So again Would you put your Dog over or not.
Like say lift up the bottom Wire and help em through or would you pick em up and put em over?
Now as for the other Dogs Leaving the track to Find the way trough the fence Because they KNOW the area and have ran it before..
IF those Dogs had NEVER been there before Would they have left the Track to get to the Hole in the Fence???
Why Should Dog C be punished for Sticking to the track?
if your running in an Area that YOU KNOW has fences Couldnt you agree at the Beginning of the cast to Put em Over it. and Continue the race?
Seems to me that the Folks Who Run their Dogs in this area ALL the time Would have an Unfair advantage with their Dogs KNOWING the Area and How the rabbits pattern..

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Registered: Sep 2007
Location: NE OHIO
Posts: 832

Certainly a dog that runs in that area knows just how to get around the fence so it is a definite and unfair advantage. As for a dog hanging in the fence that should be an immediate time out to save the dog. The safety of the dogs is first. Mayber it should be a majority of the cast decision to continue a track after it has gone through a fence, but it isn't. The dog that made it through will continue to score lines by itself while the others continue to struggle to get through to pack in. Only a matter of time before one is harmed by the unsafe situation. This issue has caused a stir for many years. I won't guide to an area that would put the dogs in this type of situation.
At the performance pack world hunt the dogs crossed through a fence. The dog that got through got the recovery and eventually the others left the track and found a way under. In the mean time the judge stood up on the lane and never did cross over to judge the pack. A large portion of the cast had no scoring as the dogs continued to run with no judge following them. Not sure that is a good way to do it even though it may be within the rules. I do think we should consider how fences effect accurately scoring our hounds.

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Registered: Jan 2004
Location: cental Michigan
Posts: 92

I would let the handlers put the dogs that could not get through over the fence. Here at home we have no fences so the dogs arent used to it. But when I go to the Howe Indiana club which is amish country there are fences everywhere which this fat boy hates trying to climb over and watch out sometimes there is a hot wire lol and sometimes my dogs cant figure out how to get over.

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Registered: Nov 2004
Location: Fresno Ohio
Posts: 2212

Just for the record I do let the handlers lift the dog over the fence. I have only had 1 handler question this since it first happened. My response was I would not leave the hound at the fence due to endangerment and without the judge they couldnt score. (This was not my hound) Usually a aggressive handler will say put him over and lets go score. The senerio I posted was the first time on a cast that it happened to me while judgeing. Just wondered what others would have done.
I dont think we need a fence rule.

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