Registered: Dec 2007
Location: Park Rapids, MN
Posts: 246

i know you can't put a fixed dog in bench shows but i was wondering about night hunts or the hunt tests? i just bought a walker gyp that is fixed, but i think after i get her trained, she might have what it takes to put her in the hunts.

i understand the concept of not wanting fixed dogs to have championship titles, but i was just curious.

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Registered: Jun 2003
Location: Central Michigan
Posts: 6544

I don't know how they would know if a female is fixed or not. Frankly, I think whether or not a dog is fixed should remain the owners wishes, and if they want to show it they should be able to show it. So far I haven't seen a reasonable argument yet. JMO

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Larry Atherton

Aim small miss small

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Location: martinville , indiana
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Yes a dog being fixed or neuterd can participate in the hunt only as far as the showing goes no. the reasonign for not being able to particepate in the show is because dogs are judeged on confirmation only not ability. so there reproduction is apart of the total dog as most think so thee for dogs have to have all body parts. being fixed or neutered also follows under cosmetic adjustment to the dog wich goes under the rule no cosmetic surgery that is altering to the dog is allowed in a confirmation show which in other words bench showing. For the competiton hunts the dogs are judge only on ability and speed and how good the ability to hunt and find the desired game is compared to the requirments to do so on a competition hunt. I hope this has helped you.

J.R.

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Registered: Jun 2003
Location: Central Michigan
Posts: 6544

Just for sake of a general argument and not aimed at any one. The antiquated notion of a complete dog based on its testis is bull. Fixing a dog is not comestic surgery.

Fixing a dog is a responsible decision. If you never intend to breed a dog, you should be able to do the responsible thing period.

Anyone who uses the above notion to justify punishing someone for responsible pet ownership is only kidding themselves. I can't wonder how many culls have not been fixed just because someone may want to show the dog later. JMO

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Larry Atherton

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Registered: Jun 2003
Location: Canton, NC
Posts: 721

Larry,

Even though I had not finished Adonis to CGRCH yet,
as at the time, I was one of the only people showing all-breed, I could not get enough competition even at Premiere.

He had been beat up in the hunts so much, he was getting real nervous around other males, esp large, dark colored ones, and wasn't enjoying showing anymore.
I had a nice dog out of him, that was consistently beating him in the ring. I knew I wouldn't be able to afford to breed anytime soon, & when I did I would breed from his son
(which I still haven't done yet). So since he always had girls on the brain & scared about getting beat up, I decided to neuter him & make things easier for him

I would so love for the rules to change so that I could continue showing him. It's one thing to have a lab that you can breed & get the pups into homes.
But finding good homes for my guys that have to hunt, but that I want to do so much more as well... too hard.
I wish for those of us that want to show but not breed often, could have certification from vets. & the kennel club registries that states the male has 2 normal testicles & then be able to collect on them if desired &neuter them,
but still show them. I think it's cruel to leave my guys intact when they will only get a chance to breed a couple times in their life.

Right now, I am just trying to talk some of the local all-breed clubs to hold a non-licensed altered class,
& find junior handlers for him. He enjoys showing again w/o the worry of getting beat up.

Although w/ all the mandatory spay/neuter laws being proposed, the rules may have to be changed.

To sum up Larry, I completely agree w/ you

Drew - I hunt adonis in the night hunts & hunt tests.
You can put a spayed/ neutered dog in any performance event.

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Registered: Mar 2004
Location: nw Iowa
Posts: 1582

Another point about showing spayed or neutered dogs, what class do you show them in? I don't think there is a eunuch class is there? I think that is why you can't show them. As after neutering or spaying they really aren't a male or female. Just something to think about.

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Tim Hickman

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Registered: Jun 2003
Location: Central Michigan
Posts: 6544

Mulerider,

Ya talk like that here in the halls of higher education and they will be making ya take a gender course.lol

Testis doesn't make the male, and the loss of them doesn't make them bark any higher.lol

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Larry Atherton

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quote:

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Originally posted by mulerider
Another point about showing spayed or neutered dogs, what class do you show them in? I don't think there is a eunuch class is there? I think that is why you can't show them. As after neutering or spaying they really aren't a male or female. Just something to think about.

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Registered: Jan 2007
Location: martinville , indiana
Posts: 390

Mr. Larry Atherton I do not aim to agrue the fact that spaying and neutering animals is not responseble by all means. but wether your reply to my post was aim toward me or not it still was. If you are up on the bench show rules you will find that the rules states any alteration to the dogs body is considered cosmetic surgery that will include spaying and neutering now I don't make the rules for showing and there is rules that i don't agree with either just like you. there is things that people should be responsble with when not breeding but rules are rules wether we agree with the rules or not they are there for us to follow no matter what our opions are of the rules. One thing is a person is more than welcome to spay neuter their dog as sees fit just like i would do if I was not going to show a dog or breed a dog it would be fixed so please don't not blame me or anyone else for knowing and following the rules.

Thankyu,
J.R.

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Registered: Jul 2006
Location: St. Olaf, Iowa
Posts: 548

quote:

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Originally posted by jackbob42
You're too funny !
If a man has a vasectomy , or a woman has a hysterectomy , does that mean you don't consider them a man or woman?
It's not like their having trans-gender surgery and you're trying to determine which bathroom they should use. LOL

---

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Seth Olson

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Registered: Oct 2003
Location: mid-michigan
Posts: 4437

quote:

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Originally posted by RH.
So if a bull gets cut do you still call it a bull?..no it's now a steer.

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Registered: Feb 2008
Location: Little Rock, AR
Posts: 29

Not expert opinon and not sure if I am correct...
I was under the assumption that bench shows were only to judge conformation for adherance to breed standards, which is one of the components of reproduction. That is is sort of a confirmation that a dog adheres to breed standards, and that if the dog is fixed that there is no point in proving it meets breed standards since it can no longer pass it's traits. I realize that conformation is only a small part of reproduction, however it seems the KC's put alot of emphasis on this, maybe to keep the breeds true to standard, not sure.

Me personally I don't care what a dog looks like other than on track and tree.

Just curious if the bench was a place to prove reproduction adherance to breed standards and likewise in subsequent offspring?

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Registered: Feb 2004
Location: West Kill, NY
Posts: 2047

I have a truly beautiful redbone who was neutered because he only had one testicle, therefore was disqualified by the breed standard. He still does other events as a redbone and there are no rules against that as far as I know. Its ok because he can't reproduce. I would love to show him as a "'special" in an all breed show, or even a coonhound show if the rules were to be changed to allow it.

Technically, the "cosmetic surgery" rule would disallow a dog that had a corrected umbilical hernia--its not medically necessary to correct them, but most vets recommend it. That's a pretty common problem and fixing it leaves very little evidence. I am willing to bet plenty of GR CH hounds had umbilical surgery before being sold, and their current owners don't even know it. I've looked at plenty of litters where several pups had hernias. I almost bought one once from a reputable breeder who hadn't even noticed the hernia. I wouldn't show such a dog because those umbilical hernias have a genetic component, but I'm not sure what the breed clubs say about it.... Anyone know?

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esp

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Registered: Jun 2003
Location: North Carolina
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the point of both events as I was told once - is to showcase the animal and show their qualities/faults etc. when you have a dog on the bench yes you are looking for conformation and "if I bred to that dog what qualities would I be getting?"

same goes for the hunt: I know that there are dogs out there doing amazing jobs and when bred they seem to pass that trait on. So, if you have a bang up dog that is neutered - what have you got? a neutered bang up dog that will never be able to pass that on.

I dont think spayed/neutered dogs should be allowed in the hunts either. I found a very nice redbone once, could hunt, built well and....he was fixed - so that did me no good. Its hard to pass on good hunt qualities if the dog is fixed.

jmo

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Registered: Feb 2008
Location: Little Rock, AR
Posts: 29

There are many folks it seems that don't even bother with the bench, which I totally understand. I only fool with it when I have the time to get to a hunt early and one of my kids is the one who generally does the showing. Plus I don't feel like my time is really spent all that well getting a dog 'ready' for a BS, since my time is limited and any time I have to spend w/ the dog, I'd much rather be out in the woods.

Are there people out there who primarly BS and not really hunt?
If so, why did you choose a hunting breed and not a non-working/ hunting breed?

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Registered: Jun 2003
Location: ALABAMA
Posts: 5183

quote:

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Originally posted by Emily
I wouldn't show such a dog because those umbilical hernias have a genetic component, but I'm not sure what the breed clubs say about it.... Anyone know?

---

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Registered: Jun 2005
Location: North of Panama City Florida
Posts: 1014

well, if i was going to have a dog i wanted to show but never wanted to breed (i personally wouldnt have a dog i couldnt hunt any nite of the week and see a coon at my house but just for sake of arguement) i would put him/her on the bench as soon as possible and try to get him finished out on the bench and later get him fixed (if that was my decision). i understand as why the rule is not to allow fixed dogs- a bench show is judging the confirmation of the breeding stock of the breed being shown. i believe dogs should not only be bred for ability but confirmation as well- i want my dogs to look good while treeing a coon lol i understand most people look down on the fact that the dog is fixed when looking to buy coonhounds as they may or maynot want to breed it- but if the dog is a cull, i WILL have the dog fixed before i get rid of it... Lord knows theres enough culls out there to begin with, we dont need to be breeding em!

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Location: North Carolina
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quote:

---

Originally posted by ItsOlMander
... i understand as why the rule is not to allow fixed dogs- a bench show is judging the confirmation of the breeding stock of the breed being shown. i believe dogs should not only be bred for ability but confirmation as well- i want my dogs to look good while treeing a coon lol i understand most people look down on the fact that the dog is fixed when looking to buy coonhounds as they may or maynot want to breed it- but if the dog is a cull, i WILL have the dog fixed before i get rid of it... Lord knows theres enough culls out there to begin with, we dont need to be breeding em!

---

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2013 World Champion Bluetick, 2013 AO Overall Bred By winner GRCH 'PR' Sexy and I know It (breeder)
2015 AO Overall Dual Champion NTCH GRCH 'PR' Sexy and I know It (breeder/owner/handler)
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Registered: Jun 2005
Location: North of Panama City Florida
Posts: 1014

quote:

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Originally posted by Cynthia
cull - ur right - should be fixed. but you made a good point about judging for conformation of breeding stock and bred for ability and meeting the breed standard. BUT how can anyone breed for ability from that bang up dog that has been fixed?

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Registered: Feb 2004
Location: West Kill, NY
Posts: 2047

just playing devil's advocate here, I don't really have a strong opinion on the matter.

one reason you might want to show a neutered dog is to demonstrate the % of good show dogs its parents are throwing... If sire and dam both throw good looking pups, but you only want to breed the best of them, the second best and third best might still be very nice looking dogs....

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esp

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Registered: Jul 2004
Location: Coatesville Indiana
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IT IS HARD TO BELIEVE THOSE TWO LITTLE MARBLE SIZED FIGURINES CAN THROW A BENCH JUDGE FOR SUCH A LOOP.....

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Registered: Aug 2004
Location: bainbridge ny
Posts: 2589

this post isn't abot huning or showing
i's about hunting and showing a nuetured hound.
well in the horse world they show gelded stallions due to stallions can be dangerous in the wrong hands and only the best left as stallions for breeding purpoes maybe not a bad idea to remove some of these bad acting hounds from the fuure gene pool.
now in sayig this there has to be a place to use these altered animals ut they have to have a class of there own when being shown as alterig them causes hem to take on a differant appearance than an intact one in the horse world many of these geldings take on a otaly differant appearance when gelded and so do dogs change in appearance due to there ormoneal changes
having a class for fixec animals would add to the number of entries.
altered animals would only compete in there own class and have a champion for there class

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Registered: Aug 2004
Location: bainbridge ny
Posts: 2589

your so righ look at those million dollar gelded race horses who would never be in a race due to being ummanageable as a stallion i would open up a whole new market. a dog gets aned for eig an aligator well keep them banned unil there altered then give hem anoher shot a gong back to hunting if it is still aggresive it's ge foreve maybe this wil put a clamp on people enering these alligators ad they would also be ou of the gene pool forever.
an truly aggressive hound should be also banned from being used as a reeding animal

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Registered: Feb 2004
Location: West Kill, NY
Posts: 2047

quote:

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Originally posted by Lowell Lynn
IT IS HARD TO BELIEVE THOSE TWO LITTLE MARBLE SIZED FIGURINES CAN THROW A BENCH JUDGE FOR SUCH A LOOP.....

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esp

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Registered: Nov 2005
Location: New Market Va
Posts: 4670

My gosh guys Now Days We can "Collect and Store Semen"

If you have a Young Male thats doing Well and is a Attrabute To the Breed "Collect On Him Now"

Heck he may be dead on the roadside tomorrow...

If you have Collected on your Male ..
Then What Difference would it make on the Bench if he was nutless or Not..

I don't know how many of you have a Large kennel .. But when you have 4-5 Studs and just as many Females coming in and out of Heat ... Even the Sweeties Become Monsters

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