Registered: Jul 2003
Location:
Posts: 33

Since rule 3.d states that a dog shut out on strike will not receive plus or minus track unless he ends up on another tree. Answer this.

3 dog cast. Mo. State finals.

Dogs A and B on leash leaving a scored tree. Dog C opens and we cut dogs A and B. Dog C is treed right before dogs A and B are struck. Dog A goes on and dog B trees with dog C. Coon is seen and plussed. Score now is dog A 525+ no minus dog B 500+ no minus and C is losing bad. We lead away from tree to cut to dog A who is carrying 25 strike with a line under it. 9 minutes left in the hunt and we don't hear dog A. We put the eight on him and it gets him. Hunts over. Who wins?

Last edited by Tim moore on 01-20-2006 at 12:05 PM

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Not Yet
Location:
Posts: N/A

Dog A never had his 25 strike deleted because never covered the tree that shut him out. The 8 caught him, he takes 25 minus. Now dog A has 500+ with 25 minus. Dog B has 500+, no minus. The first tie breaker is minus points. Dog B wins the cast.

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Dec 2005
Location: east,TN
Posts: 1435

thats the way i see it jim

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Not Yet
Location:
Posts: N/A

Gotta be a catch somewhere, that was too easy.

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Dec 2005
Location: east,TN
Posts: 1435

yea ever time i think i'm getting something wright BAM it gets me

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Jul 2003
Location: Lockridge Iowa
Posts: 2848

Dog B & C get scratched they didn't turn loose in that last minute. A wins with 525+ 25- =500+cw

Otherwise Jim is correct.

__________________
Tree Jar'n Black and Tans
Home of Tree Jar'n Coonhound Kennels


319-201-8445

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Not Yet
Location:
Posts: N/A

Not too sure about that Berger. One minute left.... I think you can, within the rules, walk that long before cutting the dogs. Is walking off the last 15 minutes against the rules?

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Dec 2005
Location: east,TN
Posts: 1435

b,c were on trail was'nt they,,if they never opened and time gets them b would win

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Dec 2005
Location: east,TN
Posts: 1435

the eight gets dog A not B and C

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Not Yet
Location:
Posts: N/A

Steve, I don't think B & C were recast because they had to run the 8 on A. Dog A got caight by the 8. Now with one minute left to hunt, B & C must recast unless the cast chooses to walk a minute before casting in which case the hunt ends before dogs B & C can be recast.

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Jul 2003
Location: nebraska
Posts: 92

if dog A and B were on lead, dog C could not be struck for 100 points because all dogs must be off lead competeing for strike.

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Jan 2005
Location: Hutchinson Kansas
Posts: 957

quote:

---

Originally posted by JiM
Dog A never had his 25 strike deleted because never covered the tree that shut him out. The 8 caught him, he takes 25 minus. Now dog A has 500+ with 25 minus. Dog B has 500+, no minus. The first tie breaker is minus points. Dog B wins the cast.

---

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Jul 2003
Location:
Posts: 33

I agree that if the dog doesn't bark on track in 8 minutes it should be minused according to rule 4 e. But if you look at rule 3 d. its says exactly this. (Dog cannot receive plus or minuse points if he is not on trail when first dog is declared treed unless he trees on seperate tree.) Does rule 4 e. override rule 3 d.? If so, how do you know that? Dog A never treed on seperate tree or on closed tree. So he is carrying 25 strike with a line under it. It doesn't say in the rules what to do with the strike points unless the dog ends up on the closed tree or a seperate tree. All it says is dog cannot receive plus or minus unless.... According to rule 3 d. you cannot minuse this dog on strike.

Tim

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Jun 2005
Location: North Carolina
Posts: 543

Jim had it right the first time. You guys need to read the rules for what they are and not put in extra items to confuse yourself. Good answer Jim.

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Jun 2003
Location: Hudson, Indiana
Posts: 998

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tim moore
So he is carrying 25 strike with a line under it. It doesn't say in the rules what to do with the strike points unless the dog ends up on the closed tree or a seperate tree.

---

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Not Yet
Location:
Posts: N/A

When you put a line under those strike points, it is to remind the judge that the dogs strike will be deleted if that dog covers the dog that shut him out. If the dog does anything other than cover the dog that shut him out, his strike points are scored as if the line under wasn't there.

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Jul 2003
Location:
Posts: 33

The rules don't say that. The rule say's he can't be plussed or minused unless........

Tim

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Not Yet
Location:
Posts: N/A

Tim, I take it you were handling dog A. I have seen some purty creative ways of trying to get out of a well earned minus. This is one of them.

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Jul 2003
Location:
Posts: 33

Actually I won with Dog B. And I am not arguing the point that the dog should be minused. It is when I was walking the three miles back to the truck that night that I got to thinking about this. If you tell me that rule 4 e. will over ride rule 3 d. in all these situations, I'm on board. However, it doesn't say that anywhere. I do believe this is a situation where UKC may want to look at rule 3 d. and revise it a little. Everyone says go by the rules. If you do that, according to 3 d. YOU CAN'T MINUS DOG A

Tim

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Jun 2003
Location: Morrison TN
Posts: 4927

Actually this is what happens sometimes when re writing rules. It has unintended consequences or sometimes fails to fix previous unintended consequences. A dog struck after the others tree has always had this loophole, and it would have been nice if the re-write were to have fixed it, but it didn't.

According to the way rules are, 3d wins out because it specifically tells you what to do in that specific situation. Basically the dog has to actually make a tree somewhere for those strike points to be eligible for scoring.

I don't like it, but as the rules read right now that's is what must happen because the rule is specific and applies for that situation.

UKC will have to come out with a specific advisor to say different in order for those points to be scored. They could also ammend the wording of the rule to say "if dog does not make a tree refer to rule 4.

__________________
Let's go huntin

Last edited by Rip on 01-19-2006 at 06:16 PM

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Jun 2003
Location: Hudson, Indiana
Posts: 998

3. POINTS WILL BE PLUS:

d. Dog cannot receive plus or minus strike points if he is not on trail when first dog is declared treed unless he trees on separate tree. However, he may receive tree points if he trees within five minutes. Dogs that strike must be declared struck and recorded by Judge.


JiM, while I agree that the intent of the rule is to make the strike good with the exception of at a pre-declared tree, but the language is there in the rule for what Tim is saying. There is no specification that the plus or minus points are related to treeing.

That said, and you would never get it past a moh.

Last edited by Hump on 01-19-2006 at 08:16 PM

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Jul 2003
Location:
Posts: 33

Would one of you people at UKC answer this?

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Jul 2003
Location:
Posts: 33

tim

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Mar 2004
Location: CT
Posts: 1022

ukc???

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Jan 2006
Location: bronaugh,MO
Posts: 2595

The line, like Jim said, is to remind the judge of the shut out. As soon as it was clear the dog wasnt at the shut out tree, the line is removed. He is then in for 25 good or bad.

I also saw somewhere where it was said not to draw the line under it, but wait till it was clear the dog was shut out and then draw the line threw it. Something about not scribbling up the card.

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged