Registered: Jul 2004
Location: Pilot mtn, North Carolina
Posts: 971

nite ch cast. dogs a,b,c,and d are cast.abc tree, d trees and leaves it. we get to tree and have grinner.abc scratched,gogs are disciplined and we leave tree about 30 feet to listen for dog d. dog d comes to cast,handler handles dog before any reason to handle is given. i said he was to be minused for coming in or scratched for being handled. handler d said dog was coming in to tree with off game after cast arrived. he then claimed interferance because his dog pulled to others being "disciplined".

you be the judge, i will tell you laterhaow itcomeout.

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Registered: Aug 2005
Location: warren,ohio
Posts: 1436

If he was not told to handle his dog he is scratched and if you did not scratch him he would of been minused when he come back in to you not working a track

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Registered: Jun 2003
Location: cambridge,ohio
Posts: 4143

quote:

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Originally posted by kudzu_blue
nite ch cast. dogs a,b,c,and d are cast.abc tree, d trees and leaves it. we get to tree and have grinner.abc scratched,gogs are disciplined and we leave tree about 30 feet to listen for dog d. dog d comes to cast,handler handles dog before any reason to handle is given. i said he was to be minused for coming in or scratched for being handled. handler d said dog was coming in to tree with off game after cast arrived. he then claimed interferance because his dog pulled to others being "disciplined".

you be the judge, i will tell you laterhaow itcomeout.

---

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Registered: Nov 2004
Location: indiana
Posts: 1119

He could have been minused if they had not given a lesson out. But I do see his point. His dog hit up on a tree it knew it should'nt and the other dogs got a lesson, and it came in tail tucked. Scratch the other dogs and interference called. If you don't like it question it and take it back and get wrote up. You can't pick and choose the rules we go by and that is in the rules as well.

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Kudzu made it clear that dogs A, B and C were scratched for the possum. Dog D is scratched because he was handled while struck in and the judge did not give any orderr to handle. Can somebody show me anywhere in the rulebook where "interference" gets you out of minus or scratch?

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Registered: Jun 2003
Location: Oklahoma
Posts: 2410

Handler of dog D was only in danger of his dog being scratched .. all others could have been wrote up themselves for correcting their dogs .... Handler of dog D should have used that to blackmail the cast and get it down to a one dog cast and pencil in a big score and win the hunt ... it's a rookie mistake but maybe handler D will learn.

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Registered: Dec 2003
Location: North Carolina
Posts: 2962

a tuff situation ... i think maybe the discipling of the other dogs could pull another off track but most likely the handler whoever he was just didnt want to be scratched or minused, hard to get some folks to take there minus... i let a guy handle his dog in the zones without my permission i was trying to be nice but he eventually got scratched for failure to hunt (32 minutes of sleepin in the box ) .....in this situation handler of dog d probably got scratched for handling his dog but he questioned it and the master of hounds overturned it ,,,just my quess ...how did it turn out kudzu pm me if its too soon to let the cat out of the bag lol.....

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Registered: Jan 2006
Location: bronaugh,MO
Posts: 2595

He could be scratched for handling his dog without permission, but that would be pretty petty and wouldnt have happened if I was judging.

He can not be minused on track because he came in to a tree that was closed and no coon was seen. He could be scratched for off game also, as he was treed on the tree with the others and no split tree was called.

I would be willing to bet a bunch have played "pass the possum" and its agianst the rules. They were also scratched for off game, so for them the hunt was over and UKC rules were out the window.


By moving to listen for him, the cast had as much as said he was still in the hunt. My dog= he goes back to the possum and gets a leash lesson also, your dog= he goes on to finish the cast alone.

See why I hate freakin judging my own dog?

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Registered: Jun 2003
Location: Morrison TN
Posts: 4927

Depends, if you were still "at the tree" when the dog came in then the dog gets away with it because he came into a tree after the judge arrived and no coon was seen so his strike would have been circled. While I disagree with Todds ruling on this saving a NtCh from his scratch that is the official UKC ruling.

The kicker is that you can't score a previously scored tree no matter what so if you had left far enough to consider it not at the tree then the tree scoring was complete and the dog would get deleted for going into a scored tree.

If you were far enough away from the tree then the dog would have been minused his strike because the rules say "Judges are not to let hunters call dogs off a trail without counting those points minus." Rule 17 so he can get his dog off trail but has to take the minus.

If the judge tells him to turn his dog back loose and he refuses THEN you can scratch him for refusing to do what the judge told him to, or if the judge had told him NOT to handle the dog before hand and he did it anyway the same premise would apply.

You can't scratch him just because there was no split called because you don't know if they were split or not. There is no provision for a split tree to be called by anybody EXCEPT the judge. He and only he calls a split tree and then only if it was obvious.

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Registered: Jun 2003
Location: Central Arkansas
Posts: 1652

Can someone please quote, for my own beneifit, the rule used to scratch someone for handling a dog? If you can call a dog in off a track and only be minused, it should stand to reason you can handle it, IMO. Just curious...

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Registered: Jun 2005
Location: North Carolina
Posts: 543

I don't know about you guys but I wouldn't scratch someone for either one of these offenses. If the dog walked up and it was plainly obvious that the dog had quit the track why not handle the dog?? He is going to take his minus. Also why would you want someone to be written up for correcting their dog? I mean UKC doesn't feed the dog and you are certainly out of the hunt, so why does it matter..

People seem so fast now to try and get someone out of the hunt any way they can and if they can't win they don't want nobody to, why is that???

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Registered: Jun 2003
Location: cambridge,ohio
Posts: 4143

quote:

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Originally posted by PatrickRobinson
I don't know about you guys but I wouldn't scratch someone for either one of these offenses. If the dog walked up and it was plainly obvious that the dog had quit the track why not handle the dog?? He is going to take his minus. Also why would you want someone to be written up for correcting their dog? I mean UKC doesn't feed the dog and you are certainly out of the hunt, so why does it matter..

People seem so fast now to try and get someone out of the hunt any way they can and if they can't win they don't want nobody to, why is that???

---

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Darrell, I think the rule that is used to scratch for handling without permission is rule 4(e). "When a dog quits a trail that is being worked and comes in, he will be minused. .....He is not to be tied or encouraged to go back." The "not to be tied" is what they use to scratch when a dog is handled without permission.

Last edited by on 10-08-2006 at 11:12 PM

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Registered: Jun 2005
Location: North Carolina
Posts: 543

If you go to a nite hunt and depend on rules to be enforced like this to win, then you might need to spend some time looking for a dog rather than the rule book.

You need to use common sense in the hunts to. If you want to enforce one rule to the extreme enforce them all night long, I can do either. I mean to want a man scratched for handling his dog while someone is over there correcting one is not being fair and isn't following the rules.

But the minute you start not getting pleasure out of a night hunt you shouldn't go to them in my opinion.

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Registered: Jun 2003
Location: Central Arkansas
Posts: 1652

quote:

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Originally posted by JiM
Darrell, I think the rule that is used to scratch for handling without permission is rule 4(e). "When a dog quits a trail that is being worked and comes in, he will be minused. .....He is not to be tied or encouraged to go back." The "not to be tied" is what they use to scratch when a dog is handled without permission.

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Registered: Jun 2003
Location: Morrison TN
Posts: 4927

quote:

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Originally posted by Darrell
I've always judged on the premise, that if they handle the dog without instruction, it is an indication of withdrawal, but I guess the end result is the same...

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I have ask the question on the PKC board about being scratched for handling without being instructed to by the judge and never got an answer. I know for certain that they will scratch you for it in PKC but I cannot find a rule that supports it in any way in the PKC book. In AKC, it isn't a sctatch, itis just minus strike points.

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Registered: Jun 2003
Location: cambridge,ohio
Posts: 4143

quote:

---

Originally posted by PatrickRobinson
If you go to a nite hunt and depend on rules to be enforced like this to win, then you might need to spend some time looking for a dog rather than the rule book.

You need to use common sense in the hunts to. If you want to enforce one rule to the extreme enforce them all night long, I can do either. I mean to want a man scratched for handling his dog while someone is over there correcting one is not being fair and isn't following the rules.

But the minute you start not getting pleasure out of a night hunt you shouldn't go to them in my opinion.

---

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Registered: Jun 2003
Location: Central Arkansas
Posts: 1652

On the other hand, if it is NOT a scratch, what do you do with that dog? How long does he stay on the leash?

I think "most" people agree if you leash you dog in the middle of a hunt without being at a tree or instructed to do so, you are done. I was just curious what rule/rules are used...

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Registered: Jul 2004
Location: Pilot mtn, North Carolina
Posts: 971

2 said he was minused for coming into CAST, two said interferance.the insuing conversaton was turning ugly so we dropped it.went to the truck and signed the card.remaining handler threatened to write us all up for unsportsmanlike conduct for us all leaving cast and leaving him.at this point i took my tracking coller off of his dog.i let him use equipment but i am unsportsmanlike.

all discipline towards my dog was verbal,she only responds to electricity and she was not wearing a collar.

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Registered: Jun 2003
Location: Just up the road a piece.
Posts: 1436

He was driving /LOL!!!

Could this have been questioned and taken back to the MOH ??

And if so .....why do you think it wasn't ??

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kudzu, there are no 2-2 draws in UKC. It takes a majority to overrule a judge. 2-2 is not a majority so the judges ruling, whatever it was, stands.

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Registered: Jun 2003
Location: western NY
Posts: 72

Unless dog d was obviously split,he ran and treed off game (judges decision),should be scratched even though he left the tree,doesn't matter what happened after.Had he not run and treed with other dogs and came in after cast ,circle strike.(PAGE 88 COONHOUND ADVISOR)

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