Registered: May 2017
Location: West Plains Mo
Posts: 471

Strike goes Dogs A,B,C Tree goes Dog A,B Dog C split. Score tree A,B have coon Dog C is circled. Cast move location a Dog opens handlers of Dog A,C both call dog. Judge and handle of Dog B says one has take 100 minus. But he not sure with dog open dogs sound very similar. He finally decides to minus dog A even tho wasn't sure. After hunt plays out judge admitted he might made wrong call but since it had already been scored he couldn't change.

What's everyone thoughts on these?

Also I just want say so not to discourage anyone thinking about trying the competition hunts. I don't think this was cheating or anything like that. And for every cast in hunt that something like this that happens a person has 10 good cast that will go smooth. Anytime you have have competition of any kind some times you catch break and sometime you are on other end of stick.

__________________
Ephesians 2:8 KJV
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

Bayou Creek Black and Tan’s

Nathan Phenix
417-255-5697

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Dec 2014
Location:
Posts: 108

The judge made a call if he made wrong call guy should put a question on right then but if there was no question on it right then you can’t change it but if they did once judge found out he made wrong call it could be brought back to master of hounds or hunt director and heard and judge can say at that time he made wrong call it would be voted on and most likely over turn

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: May 2017
Location: West Plains Mo
Posts: 471

What if a judge is un able to be certain on call like that?

__________________
Ephesians 2:8 KJV
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

Bayou Creek Black and Tan’s

Nathan Phenix
417-255-5697

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Feb 2005
Location:
Posts: 1740

Put a ? on it.....u got nothing to lose .....

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Feb 2017
Location: Statesville
Posts: 47

He can take his time and make sure that was the dog that should be minus. Let the dog open a couple more times tell the handlers to make sure which dog is what. Then minus it if it is a three dog cast it shouldn't be much of an issue. Most mistakes that judges make are made because they are pressured to or don't know they have time to make a call it doesn't have to be made right then that sec on one bark.

__________________
Stonewall24

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Sep 2010
Location: New Paris, Indiana
Posts: 7076

As a judge, I would never minus a dog on a call I'm not sure about. I'd rather put them on the paper as called, 100, 75. If they sound that much alike and the judge isnt sure who barked, who's to say they didn't both bark? Just put'em on the card as called and move on.

__________________
UKC Nite Champion Stylish Harry's Trixie - 2017 World Hunt Qualified - Owners - Sizemore/Martin
PKC CH/UKC GrNtCh Stylish Kate - 9/12/08 to 9/23/2016 R.I.P - Owners Sizemore/Martin
AKC/UKC NtCh Sizemore's Timber Jam Jeff 5/2/2000 to 1/22/2012 R.I.P.
AKC/UKC GrNtCh Sizemore's Timber Jam Jessi 12/21/04 to 1/21/2011 R.I.P.

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Aug 2014
Location:
Posts: 780

Wouldn't it be nice if UKC could have come up with a simple , clear cut set of rules that don't make good, honest hunters feel like cheaters.

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Nov 2010
Location:
Posts: 38

It's the handlers responsibility to know his dog. If it is left up to the judge and he is not sure he could make them split. Was a vote taken?

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Mar 2007
Location:
Posts: 1312

See how two dogs can get on the card if only one dog barked.

__________________
Bob Turnbow 931-212-0069

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Jun 2012
Location: McRae Ar
Posts: 3701

quote:

---

Originally posted by Nathan Phenix
What if a judge is un able to be certain on call like that?

---

__________________
Michael Rosamond
Sunspot Lights
936-827-6309
http://www.sunspotlights.com/
When brightness matters!!

Home Of:
PKC Ch, Grch Grnch 2008 Tx state champion They call me Crazy Betty

PKC SCh CH Grnch They call me Howler too

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: May 2017
Location: West Plains Mo
Posts: 471

3 dog cast 2 guys called same dog judge was deciding vote so not much a guy can do. Needless to say the guy that got minus raised dog owned both parents likes 2 wins of have dog grand so I'm sure he knew his dog. Just bad break I guess but I'm with Jim if you can't be sure how can judge make honest call. Sounded like just a guess to me.

__________________
Ephesians 2:8 KJV
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

Bayou Creek Black and Tan’s

Nathan Phenix
417-255-5697

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: May 2008
Location: Kentucky
Posts: 3145

There is no cut and dry answer to this. Judgement call and left up to handlers to question if they want.

Bad break.

__________________
Get a Good One

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Jun 2003
Location: Washington, NC
Posts: 3302

I like Jim's answer.

I was once on a cast where three of the four dogs were almost identical in voice on a cold track. We did the best we could and laughed about it.

__________________
Bill Harper
Washington, NC
252-944-5592

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: May 2010
Location:
Posts: 1791

Are you sure you wouldn't record their strikes in order they were recieved and put a (?) besides their strikes , and inform the cast on your question mark . Then minus the wrong dog/handler for the wrong called ? I've haven't kept up with the rules so I'm kinda rusty . Lol

__________________
Delete

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Mar 2015
Location: Mi.
Posts: 1930

quote:

---

Originally posted by blue blue
See how two dogs can get on the card if only one dog barked.

---

__________________
Grnitech Pkc ch Skuna River Midnite Moe
{Skuna River Bark x Trackman's Sassy}

Nitech Stylish Clover Shark Jill - RIP 'Ole Girl
{Great White Shark x Brush Creek Patch}

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Mar 2007
Location:
Posts: 1312

Yeah 4 play I’ve seen one dog bark and three people strike but never seen them all get on the card.

__________________
Bob Turnbow 931-212-0069

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Mar 2008
Location: LaPorte IN
Posts: 1620

split the strike points and go on and have a good hunt.

__________________
Skip Hartline
219-325-0914- H
CELL 219-898-5725


gone but will never be forgotten

PR Van Dusen's Hanna o/h
NTCH PR Buck Brush Little Maggie o/h
NTCH PR Buck Brush Little Mickey o/h
PR Buck Brush Copper o/h
D NTCH PR Crooked Oak Boss o/h
D NtCH PR Alford's Alibi h
NTCH PR Alford's Hatchet h
NT CH PR Mill's Dotty h

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Feb 2015
Location: Jacksonville NC
Posts: 149

I hear some of us blaming UKC for not having a rule to fix a situation like this but I did not read a suggestion for how you think it should be fixed or judged. It is not UKC's responsibility to know the voice of your hound. Its the handlers! I have been on cast with hounds that sound alike. Its is hard and when it happens a lot of guess work goes in calling hounds that night. And if the handlers don't know how in the world can the judge know...The points get split and by the end of the night if the judge figures out somebody is calling someone else's hound then he can take action...if he put a question mark down...

__________________
Roy Jarman

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Mar 2015
Location: Mi.
Posts: 1930

quote:

---

Originally posted by blue blue
Yeah 4 play I’ve seen one dog bark and three people strike but never seen them all get on the card.

---

__________________
Grnitech Pkc ch Skuna River Midnite Moe
{Skuna River Bark x Trackman's Sassy}

Nitech Stylish Clover Shark Jill - RIP 'Ole Girl
{Great White Shark x Brush Creek Patch}

Last edited by 4play on 02-23-2018 at 05:32 PM

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Jul 2016
Location:
Posts: 511

Easy fix I drew a judge that is a rep for the English breed on first drop we called our dogs then judge asked again to point out each owner dog so he would know from start which was which he was one of the fairest best judges I have seen did a great job

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Mar 2015
Location: Mi.
Posts: 1930

quote:

---

Originally posted by treedog2345
Easy fix I drew a judge that is a rep for the English breed on first drop we called our dogs then judge asked again to point out each owner dog so he would know from start which was which he was one of the fairest best judges I have seen did a great job

---

__________________
Grnitech Pkc ch Skuna River Midnite Moe
{Skuna River Bark x Trackman's Sassy}

Nitech Stylish Clover Shark Jill - RIP 'Ole Girl
{Great White Shark x Brush Creek Patch}

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Aug 2004
Location: Chattanooga, Tn
Posts: 22471

Judges are just people. Some are better than others, but none are perfect. And some people expect way too much from them. If 2 people strike the same dog at the beginning of a hunt then how in the world is a judge supposed to tell whose dog it is? And if the handler who owns and is familiar with a dog can't tell them apart, then how in the world can a judge who has never heard him be expected to tell them apart. Y'all are sure putting a lot of pressure on a fellow hunter who just came to hunt the same as you did and got talked into judging. And who says that a judge or anyone else in a cast can't change his mind. Is that in the rules? I change my mind all of the time. If there is a rule against changing your mind then I guess that I am cheating.

Last edited by Richard Lambert on 02-23-2018 at 05:51 PM

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: May 2017
Location: West Plains Mo
Posts: 471

Once it's scored and not questioned right then the judge can't change his mind. And the problem with this cast is even if 2 guys call same dog 1 is right and 1 one is wrong then goes to vote. So a guy can know his dog and still get out voted. Especially when it's early in hunt and judge is forced to make a judgement call with very little info to go on. It's just one them deals that's a bad break and your goin to have them every once in while with anything involving human judgement. Thing is to take the breaks lucky and unlucky like a man and not throw fit or think someone is cheating every time a call don't go your way.

__________________
Ephesians 2:8 KJV
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

Bayou Creek Black and Tan’s

Nathan Phenix
417-255-5697

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: May 2010
Location:
Posts: 1791

I saw where a few says just let it go if you cannnot tell them apart . I think that's not the correct answer. To me to be fair the judge would note a (?) on the card immediately that one of the dogs will receive a minus on that strike once it's determined. He should let the cast know of his call he just made on the card .

__________________
Delete

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Aug 2004
Location: Chattanooga, Tn
Posts: 22471

quote:

---

Originally posted by Nathan Phenix
Once it's scored and not questioned right then the judge can't change his mind.......

---

Which rule or where in the Advisor does it state that a judge or cast member can't change their mind?

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged