Registered: Dec 2012
Location: Pennsylvania
Posts: 2027

Dog A is a natural coon dog from Day 1,but is hunted only 2 days a week, during coon season, and laid up the rest of the year.

Dog B is just an average coon dog,has a lot of heart and drive,but only average abilities, but he is hunted 5 nights a week, 11 months out of the year.

If these dogs were born on the same day, and hunted as described above which dog would win the cast, at a nite hunt at 3 years of age.

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Registered: Dec 2003
Location: Mercer PA
Posts: 4837

I would say Dog B simply because the handler knows him better and can call what he is doing where as the handler of dog #1 probably isn't as aware.

Threads like this go round and round but there is zero and I mean zero substitute for natural ability. A natural beauty will still win a modeling contest with zero experience over average jane who has been plugging away at the industry for 5 years. You just can't beat natural talent. Even with tons of experience and hunting an average dogs ceiling is still lower than the naturals. You may squeeze a little more out of them with hunting and experience but they will just never have the same top end as a natural talented dog.

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Location: Louisiana
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quote:

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Originally posted by Fisher13
Dog A is a natural coon dog from Day 1,but is hunted only 2 days a week, during coon season, and laid up the rest of the year.

Dog B is just an average coon dog,has a lot of heart and drive,but only average abilities, but he is hunted 5 nights a week, 11 months out of the year.

If these dogs were born on the same day, and hunted as described above which dog would win the cast, at a nite hunt at 3 years of age.

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Registered: Jun 2003
Location: michigan
Posts: 2573

Natural is what we want and look for but they need a little help from our side of the team . If the natural is as fat as a 55 gallon barrel and out of shape and average Joe is rock hard and as good as he can be you may have handicapped your natural more than he can over come . Don't expect outstanding results with no effort from us .

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Registered: Jun 2003
Location: Central Michigan
Posts: 6544

Fisher,

This is one of those questions that everyone wants a simple answer. The problem is the answer isn't an either or answer. The answer is both nature and nurture have their importance. Consider the following scenarios:

#1 A young dog with a tremendous prey drive and tons of natural ability is being trained by an inexperienced handler. The handler resorts to using an e-collar more for a form of getting back at the young dog for running off game than a training tool. The young man loads up the dog and drives country roads looking for deer in the fields near the road. Each time he sees deer he gets the dog out of box and turns it right into the deer, and starts lighting him up. After a 2 dozen sessions, the top young prospect will no longer hunt out.

What is to blame for this young hounds abilities nature or nurture? Nature did its part, but in the above example nurture failed.

Nature sets the limits of each young hound, and nurture determines where in those limits that the young hound's ability will end up.

#2 Consider that same young hound is purchased by Jim or Elvis. Both gentlemen know how to train a young hound and get the best out of it. Do you still expect that young hound to become the same cull above? I would say no.

Does that make sense to you?

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Larry Atherton

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I have said for years, it's not how much a trainer teaches a pup, but how little he messes him up that determines what kind of dog he turns out to be.

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I say give dog A to owner of dog B and you will have something phenominal . Dog A will never top out in owner A's hands . Who will win the cast , it could be different outcome on any given night , the best dog doesn't always win . Everything is up for grabs when dogs are turned loose it all comes down to dog skill , handler know how and some luck on your side .

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Registered: Oct 2014
Location: East Texas
Posts: 442

Makes perfect sense...that's why I was hesitant to breed my gyp and raise andtrain a pup for myself. A good prospect could be messed up pretty easy...Hope I have the patience and the sense to get it done...

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Registered: Jun 2014
Location: Louisiana
Posts: 3468

Go for it Greg Burks. I have no patience and very little sense and I've trained a few.

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Registered: Oct 2014
Location: East Texas
Posts: 442

Lol...maybe I want mess him up to bad then..

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Registered: Dec 2012
Location: Pennsylvania
Posts: 2027

quote:

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Originally posted by Greg Burks
Lol...maybe I want mess him up to bad then..

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"If you pick up a starving dog and make him prosperous, he will not bite you; that is the principal difference between a dog and a man."
Mark Twain

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Registered: Oct 2014
Location: East Texas
Posts: 442

I've raised and trained a lot of hounds..just not a coon hound from start to finish. ..seems it could be a little more touchie than a deer, hog or rabbit hound..

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Registered: Dec 2012
Location: Pennsylvania
Posts: 2027

Ok guys, first lots of good points!!!
That being said, I feel like a lot of you are avoiding the question.
Yes Dog A and the Handler that hunts 5 nights a week would be the ideal situation!!! However I chose not to post the question in that order because there wouldn't be much of a discussion other wise.

As stated we all know DOG B, would be the better dog. However it seems that no wants to admit it.

In my short experience, most handlers that hunt hard and regularly, have a dog that can win on any given night. Yes there are some genetic holes that are impossible to hunt out of dog, however there are also plenty of guys that always seem to have a so so dog at the end of there lead, and are very quick to blame it on genetics.

I'm still learning, and may change my views someday. Both are needed, however we have a little more control over nurture then we do genetics, so shouldn't we put a little more time and energy into what we can control?

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"If you pick up a starving dog and make him prosperous, he will not bite you; that is the principal difference between a dog and a man."
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Registered: Jun 2013
Location: PA 16646
Posts: 1120

depends on if the nite hunt is during coon season or not, if it is Ill take the natural, id probably still take the natural anyday ive hunted enough average dogs

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Location: Western N.Y.
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quote:

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Originally posted by Fisher13
Ok guys, first lots of good points!!!
That being said, I feel like a lot of you are avoiding the question.
Yes Dog A and the Handler that hunts 5 nights a week would be the ideal situation!!! However I chose not to post the question in that order because there wouldn't be much of a discussion other wise.

As stated we all know DOG B, would be the better dog. However it seems that no wants to admit it.

In my short experience, most handlers that hunt hard and regularly, have a dog that can win on any given night. Yes there are some genetic holes that are impossible to hunt out of dog, however there are also plenty of guys that always seem to have a so so dog at the end of there lead, and are very quick to blame it on genetics.

I'm still learning, and may change my views someday. Both are needed, however we have a little more control over nurture then we do genetics, so shouldn't we put a little more time and energy into what we can control?

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Everything that makes them a COONDOG is on the inside

Last edited by john Duemmer on 04-16-2015 at 12:38 AM

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Registered: Dec 2012
Location: Pennsylvania
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quote:

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Originally posted by john Duemmer
The part your not getting is that the hard hunter that always has a dog that can win wont feed Dog B, he has learned that if you want a winner you have to start with natural ability, he has learned that life is to short to waste time trying to make something common into something exceptional.
And maybe more importantly he has learned to tell the difference.

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"If you pick up a starving dog and make him prosperous, he will not bite you; that is the principal difference between a dog and a man."
Mark Twain

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Registered: Sep 2013
Location: central NY
Posts: 378

I expected this post to blow up over, How many grand's and how many times this and that in the breading etc.

You guys got right to the point as I see it.

Not that my Opinion means anything.

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Last edited by anycolor4us on 04-16-2015 at 02:08 AM

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Registered: Jun 2014
Location: Louisiana
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I'm going to go with dog A. A dog that treed a coon his first time in the woods obviously doesn't need much hunting to get the job done. Hard work is admirable, but it can only take you so far.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Fisher13
the rest of us our focus should be learning to nurture the talent

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Larry Atherton

Aim small miss small

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Looks guys don't get me wrong, I buy the best pup I can get my hands on. To me though one first has to learn to nurture talent before learning to breed for it. I feel so much of our focus tends to be on genetics that nurture is often over looked. Not to mention the more confidence one has in there training program, the more one can identify and define genetic faults and holes in a dog,because one can say with complete confidence it wasn't a product of environment.

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"If you pick up a starving dog and make him prosperous, he will not bite you; that is the principal difference between a dog and a man."
Mark Twain

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So dog B does some winnin because his handler has put in the time, ya know what happens next? ......Dog B gets bred, and thats a shame because he probably wont produce any naturals like dog A might and the cycle of mediocrity continues. Nothing a dog has been taught will pass to its offspring.
The only way the percentage of naturals born in a litter will increase is if the dogs that require alot of time and training are not bred.
NATURE 90%
NURTURE 10%
And we would all have better dogs.

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Last edited by john Duemmer on 04-16-2015 at 06:05 PM

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Registered: Oct 2014
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Posts: 246

genetics is a science that has been proved, tested, and tested again. Yet in the coonhunting (messageboard) world folks still want to argue over it. Coon hunters want to make things more complicated than they really are

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Registered: Jun 2013
Location: PA 16646
Posts: 1120

Fisher have you ever owned or hunted a natural? Im guessing you havent because
Your views would be different, im hunting a natural right now and you know what i have had to do to train him? Cut him loose at night

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Registered: Dec 2013
Location: PA.
Posts: 1738

quote:

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Originally posted by dchartt
im hunting a natural right now and you know what i have had to do to train him? Cut him loose at night

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Registered: Jun 2013
Location: PA 16646
Posts: 1120

Lmao you got me there!

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