Registered: Aug 2006
Location: Northern California
Posts: 800

So a question on the breeding of merles. It seems as though I've heard a lot about NOT doing it. But I see a lot of dogs that have been bred that way, for seemingly a few generations.

I recently got a pup, a merle, and her parents are both merle. She was the only pup that was not pretty much solid white. One pup from a previous cross is deaf, their great grandmother was deaf (though not white)... Is it because the lines do not also carry the piebald gene that they can breed merle and double merles back to a merle and not get all the white? I am a long ways off from breeding. But most stud dogs are merle. Being clear out in California, we just don't have an over abundance of Leopards out here, or much way to learn about them. My worry is if I chose to breed her to another merle dog I'd get an entire litter of white deaf pups.

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Registered: Aug 2006
Location: Northern California
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---------------------------------------- WICK'S CAMO JUG
------------------------------ NITECH MC DILL'S JOHNNY REB
---------------------------------------- MC DILL'S BELL
-------------------- WCH FCH GRNITECH GRCH RILEY'S FLATHEAD VALLEY BOLT HTX
---------------------------------------- WRIGHT'S C.C. BIG JOHN
------------------------------ MC DILL'S PRETTY GIRL
---------------------------------------- LEWIS' CHEETA
-- JACKSON'S KATMANDU
---------------------------------------- NITECH LAKER'S SPEED
------------------------------ WABASH VALLEY SPEED TRAP
---------------------------------------- LAKER'S BOBBIE GIRL
-------------------- RILEY'S FLATHEAD VALLEY CAMMY
---------------------------------------- WICK'S CAMO JUG
------------------------------ LAKER'S SADIE
---------------------------------------- SPARKLIN SUSIE
PUPPY
---------------------------------------- TOTH'S BEAR MT BUSTER
------------------------------ TOTH'S BEAR MT DUSTY
---------------------------------------- TOTH'S BEAR MT HOPE (deaf)
-------------------- TOTH'S BEAR MT 1/2 A'BUCK
---------------------------------------- FELIX' BUCKO
------------------------------ HEALEY'S BEAR MT AUGIE
---------------------------------------- TOTH'S BEAR MT TROUBLE
-- JACKSON'S DELILAH JANE
---------------------------------------- BEAR MOUNTIAN MACK DUFFIE
------------------------------ TOTH'S BEAR MT SPADE
---------------------------------------- TOTH'S BEAR MT LADY BUG
-------------------- MOSS' LILLY
---------------------------------------- CANTRELL'S SOCKER
------------------------------ TOTH'S BEAR MT TROUBLE
---------------------------------------- TOTH'S BEAR MT BRANDY

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REDWOOD'S TREEING WALKER COONHOUNDS
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Last edited by Redwood Hounds on 05-18-2015 at 01:47 AM

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Registered: Sep 2007
Location: South Dakota
Posts: 1442

There are lots of solid colored studs out there. Bolt, Care Bear, Lucky Luke, just to name the first few that came to mind.

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Registered: Mar 2006
Location: Superstition Mtns., AZ
Posts: 1166

First, you can get regular merles out of a double merle cross and that may be what you've got there. In a merle to merle breeding (assuming both parents are just regular merles) you should end up with about 25% double merle pups on average. If one of the parents are double merle and one is a single merle it should average 75% double merle and 25% single merle. If both are double merle you'll have 100% double merle pups. The latter is just pain silly to do. The single to double is asking for enough trouble.

I you know what your doing and can handle a little culling, breeding merle to merle is fine really. It's just that many people don't cull. There are a several reasons why but the bottom line is that it doesn't get done and it's a real shame for obvious reasons.

I just bred two single merles together. They are in the pen right now. Here's the pedigree with each individual's color noted.

m = single merle
M= double merle
S= non merle

--------------------------------Wick's Camo Jug (m)
-----------------------Ganus' Hoosier Blue Jug (m)
--------------------------------Sparklin Susie (S)
--------------Ganus' Hoosier Pride (m)
--------------------------------Wick's Camo Jug (m)
-----------------------Schluze's Siouxie (S)
--------------------------------Sparklin Susie (S)
Pups
--------------------------------Wick's Camo Jug (m)
-----------------------Ganus' Hoosier Blue Jug (m)
--------------------------------Sparklin Susie (S)
--------------Northern Blue Music (m)
--------------------------------Wick's Camo Jug (m)
-----------------------Jug's Sparklin Rachel (S)
--------------------------------Sparklin Susie (S)

I should have a few to cull. Some I will be able to tell right away and some I will have to wait until their eyes open. I know that there are some double merles that go on to lead healthy lives free from deafness and eye problems but it's a gamble and I'm not willing to risk it at the expense o others just to sell a dog. All of mine are guaranteed and will be replaced if any health problem arises but It's just not worth it to have to go through the extra expense of shipping and the heartache that comes with having to put a dog down when it develops a problem later. Also, if a pup is deaf in one ear, it's rather difficult to notice unless you have the pup BEAR hearing tested and that is a pretty spendy procedure in itself.

Here's one extra cation. Keep in mind that hearing problems are not isolated to double merle dogs in the Leopards. I had a cross of a black and tan male to a single merle female that produced mostly deaf pups. some of them were deaf in one ear and some in both. I sold most o those pups when they were very young and it took a lot o money and a couple of years to get all of that back out of the breeding pool. All but one of those pups are gone and the remaining one is a pet and not being bred. Bad things can happen unintentionally, why do it on purpose? That's my feeling.

I hope this helps. Merle to merle can be done but you have to be both knowledgeable and vigilant I you attempt to do it.

One other bit of information. If you haven't met Megan Tibbetts from around Flagstaff, Az. yet, your missing out. She's not all that far from you and has a pair of nice Leopards that are related to yours. Look her up on FB or here. She's into hunting lions and bobcats.

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Last edited by Dan McDonough on 05-18-2015 at 03:56 PM

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Registered: Jan 2015
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Redwood hounds, real looker of pup you got. Our kennel been reading up on these dogs just gotta get kids convinced red bones aren't only hunting dogs. The red fern book and movie got us all color blind.

Dan McDonough these breeding practices confuse me. So you knowingly breed dogs when you know exact percentages that have serious physical faults, then you kill new born puppies or when eyes open kill them? Thats disgusting.

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Registered: Mar 2006
Location: Superstition Mtns., AZ
Posts: 1166

Oh look, another opinion...just what I've been waiting for.

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Registered: Jan 2015
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Im sorry mister McDonough but on message boards if you freely voice your opinion your going to hear others as well. Some can't handle that it seems.

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Registered: Mar 2008
Location: Menominee, Nebraska
Posts: 875

I'm not going to go into a long discussion on genetics, but I will try to sum it up a little bit.

MM=double merle
Mm=regular merle dog
mm=solid color, no merle

Each parent gives up half of this trait, so if you breed two merle dogs (Mm) to each other, the probability of having MM dogs is 25%, regular merle (Mm) dogs is 50%, and solid color (mm) is 25%. Now if you breed a merle dog (Mm) to a solid colored (mm), you have a 25% chance of having merle dogs (Mm) and a 75% chance of having solid colored (mm) dogs. Breeders do this because people think the look of a merle colored dogs is cool, and this is the best chance of having higher numbers of merle puppies, even though the probability of having physical defects is 25%.

Now there is a chance, you can get a litter of 100% double merle puppies that will most likely have physical defects, and there is also a chance that you won't have any MM dogs in the litter. There is also a chance that a dog can be MM and never show any traits of being MM, which can really mess with a good breeding program.

Genetics is all about chance and probability, which is always a flip of a coin. The one thing a breeder can do is breed responsibly to help your chances of getting what you want. If you want healthy leopards that will actually hunt for you, then breed a merle to a solid color, and only breed leopards that actually hunt. You will help yourself out in the long run.

NOTE: This is just my opinion and heaven forbid that it is different from anyone else's. So don't get butt-hurt if it isn't exactly the same as yours or someone else's.

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Last edited by michael.magorian on 05-19-2015 at 06:34 PM

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Registered: Mar 2011
Location: St. Louis MO
Posts: 115

Nice looking pup, I like some of it's breeding. There are plenty of black males to breed to. If she is double merle, breed to a black dog and you'll get plenty of spotted pups.

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Registered: Mar 2006
Location: Superstition Mtns., AZ
Posts: 1166

Cassandra, I just now paid attention to who you are.

I answered your post in public service mode just trying to help. I didn't mean to stir things up.

That's a neat cross of blood in that pup. There will be a small tie between those lines going all of the way back to Kankakee Valley Nancy through Dink's Afire on the Bear Mountain side and up through Foolish Pleasure on Cassy's side and also through Laker's Speed I believe. That would be an interesting thing to have resurface. Nancy is still Ron Ganus' all time favorite coondog and she made quite an impact on the power in the leopard breed in nearly every line except the Bower's breeding. It could be in there somewhere too but I don't think so. Rex Bowers could answer that in a flash, he's living encyclopedia.

Anyhow, good luck with your pup. It will be fun to see how that pup turns out and what part of it's pedigree comes out of it.

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Last edited by Dan McDonough on 05-20-2015 at 01:57 PM

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Registered: Jun 2005
Location: Prince Edward Island,Canada
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What is a double Merle?

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Registered: Mar 2008
Location: Menominee, Nebraska
Posts: 875

Merle is an incomplete dominant genotype that gives leopard hounds, catahoulas, Australian shepherds, and several other breeds that spotted coat. To put it simplest, if you breed two of those spotted leopards to each other, there is a good probability that you will end up with two doses of the merle trait. This will cause noticeable physical defects particularly with hearing and eyesight. Some of the characteristics in a double merle dog is glass eyes, or partially glassed eye, or a large amount of white is present in the dog's coat.

Like I said in a previous post, responsible breeders generally breed a merle leopard to a solid colored leopard to avoid health issues for the puppies. However, there are plenty of people that will breed merle to merle just so they have a higher percentage of merle puppies produced, even though the chances of having puppies with physical defects is much higher.

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Registered: Mar 2008
Location: Western N.Y.
Posts: 4005

Glad to see some folks have taken the time to learn about the Merle gene, other than iresponsible breeders makeing a double merle cross the danger is that some of these dogs go unrecognised because they dont exibit the double merle unless you really know what your looking for. Some guys think just because a dog doesnt have a bunch of white that it is not a double but thats not the case.There is an inexpensive genetic test available now that will show what a dog carries. In every other breed that carries the merle gene it is considered unethical to cross merleXmerle even if they are not doubles.

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Registered: Aug 2013
Location: Western North Carolina
Posts: 155

Exactly what Dan said. Couldn't have said it better.
My male is from a merle to merle cross but is OFA/CERF certified and can hear perfectly fine, dark merle with tan trim and virtually no white. But I got a black and brindle female to cross him to.
There are plenty of non merle studs, but being out in CA can make that tricky. Mike Toth is in CA with a big game strand of Leopards, I'm sure he'd have some solids he would stud out.

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Registered: Aug 2006
Location: Northern California
Posts: 800

Mike Toth sold out after we lost our bear season in CA. This little bitch's mom was from one of his last crosses he made.

I was thinking if I crossed her to maybe try and take her back to her grandfather, Bolt. But we have a long while yet before we really think about breeding. I was just wondering why I never seen any mostly white Leopards like this one's littermates were, when I can tell from pedigree's that merle to merle does happen.

Dan, I really like the breeding on those. I wish I could afford to have one of yours shipped out this way. I would honestly like to get one that is heavy Jug bred. I liked Mike, and he had some nice dogs, caught a lot of game, but a few of the dogs were as quirky as he was, which hasn't worked out for me. I'd like to try a Leopard without any Bear Mt breeding. But for now, I will give this lil' thang a try.

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REDWOOD'S TREEING WALKER COONHOUNDS
& LOUISIANA CATAHOULA LEOPARD DOGS
http://www.RedwoodCoonhounds.net/

NITECH CGRCH FCH GRCH 'PR' Redwood's All Night Aspen
(2014 #1 UKC Top Ten All-Breed Conformation Treeing Walker)
NITECH CCH GRFCH GRWCH GRCH 'PR' Redwood's Wild Gamble

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Registered: Mar 2006
Location: Superstition Mtns., AZ
Posts: 1166

I'm working on getting a male out that way this year or early next. I'll keep you in the loop.

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