Registered: Jun 2007
Location: jacksonville, nc
Posts: 2856

I have never seen a bobcat in a tree, though I think my dogs have run them and treed them. they almost always run fox. last night I released them and they started a track. I figured it was a fox as usual. after 4 hours I began to wonder. at 10AM I relized they were treed. it took me a while because I wasn't expecting them to tree a fox. I went to them and there was nothing. they stopped treeing as I got near and were milling went I got there. I encouraged them to show me the tree and they started tracking again. they were so worn out I stopped them and left. 8PM to 12 noon makes for a long night. could it have been a bobcat? we don't have grey fox here that I know of. a bear wouldn't have left with the dogs there.

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Registered: Jun 2007
Location: Menard,TX
Posts: 1158

I would bet on fox as 4 hours is a long time to run a bobcat. Of course, my definition of running may be different than someone else. When I say running, I mean that the dogs are jumped and they are running to catch as if they are looking at the critter. Some folks say running and they actually mean trailing. I have found a few gray fox that would run with no intentions of treeing and stayed in front of my foxhounds for over two hours until the dogs had all they wanted and quit.
Adios,
Gary

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Registered: Jun 2007
Location: jacksonville, nc
Posts: 2856

gary, I was wrong about the gray and red fox. it was probably a gray fox after all. they did run the fox for several hours though there were many times when the dogs were quiet for a while and I could tell they were hunting for the track. at the end, I was walking toward them and go close. I had my plott with me and she jumped in and went to them. since she was fresh and loud, they might have caused the fox to tree.
since I'm ignorant about fox hunting, answer me this. if they tree, can you walk in to the tree and see the fox or is the fox likely to jump and run when you approach the tree?

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Registered: Jan 2013
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Posts: 10

I hunt fox occasionally with some buddies & there hounds, I'm a coon hunter. But they tell me Grey's are trickier than reds for a hound to run & either Grey's or cats have jumped & run when they walked in to trees but its an All Out site chase for a while when it happens.

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Registered: Jun 2007
Location: jacksonville, nc
Posts: 2856

yea, that's what I would expect too. when I got to the dogs I was looking up expecting to see a bear or bobcat but I saw nothing. must of been another ghost critters. oh well, this is just another aspect of hunting that hunting so exciting.

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Registered: Jun 2007
Location: Menard,TX
Posts: 1158

Down here, my trees are short and one would think that the fox would be bad about jumping but that has not been my experience. Generally the fox is pretty winded by the time he climbs and is very content to sit in the tree and listen to the dogs tree.
I was hunting yesterday morning and watching two young hounds hunt down an open flat when they swung toward a big live oak, a fox that had been just sitting up there jumped out and hauled it to heavier cover. Since I hunt lion in areas where there is a high population of gray fox, I don't allow my dogs to run fox. I must admit that some of the best races I have heard were fox and I sure miss it.
Adios,
Gary

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Registered: Jun 2007
Location: jacksonville, nc
Posts: 2856

thanks gary and jeff for sharing your experiences with me.

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Registered: Oct 2013
Location: Maryland
Posts: 2633

I have a few questions for you guys...based on your experience can a dog run a gray fox or coyote with their heads up??? That is to say run it like a deer or so called "fast" game??? Have you actually had them run this way and seen the gray fox???? Can you detect the smell of a coyote in the woods if you get real close to where one has just been {kind of like the way you can smell a red fox??}??? Thanks in advance for any info.

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Registered: Jun 2007
Location: Menard,TX
Posts: 1158

Yes, in the days when I would allow my dogs to run fox, they would run a jumped gray with their head in the air. I have never been able to scent a gray that my dogs were running but then your nose may be better than mine.
Adios,
Gary

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Registered: Oct 2013
Location: Maryland
Posts: 2633

Thanks for the reply...I agree, I have never been able to smell a gray in the woods and I know the smell well as I do taxidermy. Gray fox definitely have a very unique and peculiar odor all to their own.

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Registered: Jan 2011
Location: eastern panhandle,wv
Posts: 78

are you sure it wasn't a bear? I have seen bear come down in a pack of dogs when you get close to the tree, if your dogs aren't used to fighting a bear he will whip them off and leave.

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Registered: Oct 2013
Location: Maryland
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Thanks for the reply...definitely not a bear where we were. The track started out sounding very good for about 100 yards or so. Then it sounded like they "jumped" whatever it was. They did not get quiet right before this as if they switched tracks. All of a sudden blast off for about 300 yards. I have never heard either dog run like this. I would like to say they tried to locate or at least hit a tree but the way these dogs ran it you could not really tell. Then, as fast as they blasted they shut up.
I was hoping they would pull down on a tree but they abruptly quit and came right back to us. Now the area they did this is totally surrounded by woods roads and about a three acre feed plot. They initially got pretty close to a state road but did not cross. Ran parallel to the paved road for about 50 yards then turned away from the road and went into a little bottom and crossed a stream and quit somewhere just before the little field.
Here's the thing, no tracks of any kind anywhere. I really thought the way they ran it they bumped a deer. I went back out there this morning looking for tracks in the daylight but saw only dog tracks. We have red and gray fox and are just starting to get coyotes around. Whatever it was did not try to cross the field as there were no tracks of anything in it. It stayed in the cover of the woods, it did not cross a paved road and it did not cross a small field. The dogs were able to run with their heads up and they kind of made a long bear to the left with the track. I did not detect any odor of a red fox. Their was an odor there but I didn't recognize it and it may not have been what they were running.
I asked the question about the dogs able to run a gray with heads up because the dogs I have had in the past didn't. They really made the track sound like they were running a coon that just never trees. I should add that I was not guessing in this...several times we saw the gray fox. I know grays will tree, that's the reason we have red fox, but I have never treed one and had a few that would run them.

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Registered: Feb 2008
Location: Va.
Posts: 223

It's not unusual to have a 4 hr long chase here in Virginia. Bobcats will do about anything they can to lose the dogs. They will climb and then jump the tops of trees come down and gone again. The dogs will scream on a track in open timber and really put the pressure on a cat. The cats may run open woods for a short distance and then back into the thickets, rocks, cliffs or blowdowns. Seen them climb a tree and then bail out on the top of the cliff. The dogs lose it and it will take some time for them to figure it out. A lot of times young dogs will lock on the tree and it takes an experianced bobcat hound to figure these things out. Sometimes a cat will walk the blowdowns for a long way and never set foot on the ground. It dosen't take the fastest dog in the world to be a good bobcat dog, but it does take brains and a good nose. That's some of my opinions from hunting cats in the terrain we have in Va. Other parts of the country may be differant

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Registered: Aug 2008
Location: SE Ohio, Glouster
Posts: 2244

Here in the SE Ohio hill country from the time I was say 10 years old till I was about 16, My Dad and I mostly ran nothing but fox hounds. We met every Tuesday and Saturday night on the big ridges with sometimes as many as 6-10 hunters casting maybe 8 to 25 dogs at a time. In my 6 years of running both Red & grey foxes I only saw one that treed. It was a red hot track and the dogs were running to catch. Now these were fox hounds and not coon hounds, and fox hounds are usually much faster track dogs than coonhounds. That fox stayed up till I got to the tree and bailed out shortly after I put the light on it. This fox was up a small elm tree. The old time fox hunters always told me that if a fox wasn't running, a hound couldn't run it. In other words if a fox was walking or trotting around in the woods most dogs would/could only trail the animal. But once they jumped the fox and got it to break out into a run, then the hounds could run it to catch. I did see that happen one night. The fox was only about 50 to 75 yards in front of the hounds and they were struggling to keep the trail moving. That danged fox about jumped right into my lap where I was lying on the ground, and when the dogs got there to me they took off screaming like they were looking at it. strange thing, but it did happen on that night.

So from what I seen in those 6 years, I don't believe a grey fox climbs up trees and taps trees like a coon does. As a matter of fact I think they very rarely tap trees when a dog is after them. Here where I live it seemed the grey fox would go to a hole in the ground after it got tired of running, and that may be anywhere from 30 minutes up to as high as 4-5 hours. They run hard for a bit when they get caught out in a clean open woods or field but usually manage to get back to the briars and brush to slow the pack down. But even when they got back to the brush the fox hounds did not locate like they had any plans to tree. They simply went quiet when they were on a loss of the track. It seemed to me that grey foxes run much like a big woods rabbit, or a smart ole coon, but they very rarely tapped a tree. Maybe thats because my fox hounds had very little tree dog in them, LOL.

We are just now getting a decent supply of bobcats in our area, (no season yet) and I'm hoping to get some experience running these rascals one day, but for now I have very little to no experience with how they run. They tell me that they are bad to jump out after dark, but will stay up a tree better when treed in the daylight. I don't know yet but would love to find out some day.

I know I'm not much help, but that was my experience back before I got serious about coonhunting, and followed the fox hounds.

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Registered: Jun 2007
Location: jacksonville, nc
Posts: 2856

Thanks for all the fox chase talk. It's hard to find anyone or any place where fox running is discussed.

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Registered: Oct 2013
Location: Maryland
Posts: 2633

Please don't think I am trying to hi jack this thread...but there is a lot of really good info on here. The reason I asked the question about dogs running a gray fox with their heads up is because, just like rocketman I have actually seen several of them being run by a dog. The dog was not moving the track very fast and when the fox came around and I saw it he was kind of sneaking along easy like through the woods, not full blast running for his life like you would have expected. After seeing this several times it just seemed like to me that a dog had to track them with his nose on the ground and necessarily go slower. You don't smell an odor of a gray like you can a red fox when near one so it made sense.
Now since I have "used" this thread long enough I owe it to the OP to give him my answer to his question....25 years ago I knew a coon hunter named Gordon Gilroy. That name probably don't mean much to you fellas but he owned a dog named Yadkin River Crowder. The sire of Sackett, grandsire of Sackett, Jr. who produced Rat Attack. The rest is history. Gordon hunted more than anyone I have ever known. I had dogs that would do the bobcat thing, run and tree then right as you got there the "bobcat" would "jump out" and go for another hour only to do the same thing again and again until we could no longer follow them. When I mentioned at a nite hunt this to Gordon he just laughed and said "it ain't no bobcat, that's an old wives tail." I was determined to keep that thing treed and me and another buddy had three wheelers. We packed a lunch and went out that night and rode the ATC's to each tree. About four hours and 5 trees later we finally saw our "bobcat." It was a big fat whitetail deer that would run until it got winded and would stop. Usually in a laurel thicket or some other kind of cover that kept us from seeing the "tree." Of course when we got close it would "see our lights" {starting to sound familiar??} and "jump out."
I'll never forget the smile on his face the next time I saw Gordon!!! I said "well we got that bobcat last night." He smiled a big smile and said "let me guess, it was about 100 pounds and had a big white tail!!" Then he said "yep, I have treed a few "bobcats" in my day too!!!" So much for the old bobcat jumping out story. I later met a few bobcat hunters and asked them if bobcats really do jump out and you have to tree them 5 or 6 times to get one to stay. They looked at each other then at me and said "nope, never had one do that."

Edit: you know the funniest thing about the ole' bobcat jump out story...the guys that swear by it usually live in places {like me} that have zero bobcats, none. But they persist in telling and repeating the old jumping bobcat tale. Another thing they always throw in is the way their dogs "scream on the tree"...I guess they do, they are looking right at the deer four feet away!!! Good hunting and watch those bobcats!!!

Last edited by msinc on 10-14-2014 at 01:24 PM

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Registered: Jun 2007
Location: Menard,TX
Posts: 1158

Great thread. As most of you know, I hunt in south and west Texas and out in New Mexico where there are few trees and places where there are no more than bushes.
When we tree a bobcat, that cat is totally exhausted and does not want back on the ground with a pack of hounds so he will stay in a tree as long as he is away from the hounds. My dogs are bad about climbing but the cat will stay put as long as the dog doesn't try to grab the cat in the tree. I have dogs baying in the face of the cat in the tree. The only time I remember having a bobcat jumping a tree on the dogs was when the cat popped up without a race.
Interesting you tell about the fox sneaking around and the dogs not really running the fox. I have seen this on bobcats and fox. Until the fox or cat spooks and really gets to running, he is not putting out a lot of scent. As long as he is sneaking along, dogs have trouble getting the prey jumped. The same is actually true on a coon. I have seen situations where a coon was wallowing around in thick cover with the dogs really close and the dogs just had trouble running the scent that had to be smoking hot. (You have to be hunting in daylight to see this which is what I do most of the time) .In my opinion this is the hardest coon to catch, one that does not want to tree and just wants to walk and squat and change directions constantly.
If we get a bobcat or fox that will not run, just wants to wallow around in a thick spot, we will walk into the area and yell a few times to try to spook the critter to leave the area running. When this happens, the dogs generally pick it up and the race is on and a catch will be made in short order.
Adios,
Gary

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Registered: Jun 2007
Location: jacksonville, nc
Posts: 2856

I too have seen fox leisurely leading the dogs around the swamp or wherever like they were just fooling with the dogs. I've seen them come onto the road and walk aaway with the dogs way behind him running like they had it in sight. all the rest of your posts, I just don't know. I haven't the experience but what you write makes sense. except, there is NO way my dogs will ever or have ever run no deer.

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Registered: Oct 2013
Location: Maryland
Posts: 2633

quote:

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Originally posted by croatankid
I too have seen fox leisurely leading the dogs around the swamp or wherever like they were just fooling with the dogs. I've seen them come onto the road and walk aaway with the dogs way behind him running like they had it in sight. all the rest of your posts, I just don't know. I haven't the experience but what you write makes sense. except, there is NO way my dogs will ever or have ever run no deer.

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Registered: Jun 2007
Location: jacksonville, nc
Posts: 2856

my dogs run coon, tree possums, sometimes, and run fox a lot and once in a while they run bobcats. I find cat tracks in the dirt roads so I know they are there. of course I find the occasional deer track too so they must be there. I've always thought deer would run faster and straighter and longer. I've hunted deer, here in nc, with others who were using deer dogs and I remember them running, not stopping. that was during the day.. what a deer, or how they run at night I not sure about.

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Registered: Aug 2006
Location: WV Mountains
Posts: 100

All these make sense to me I've also run that jumping bobcat but let me tell u this one. I was hunting a WMA one night dogs struck ran 300 yds like they was looking at it and treed. I walk into the tree about 40 to 50 yds from tree I see eyes and it bails now all I can see was glowing eyes going thru the air and thump it hits the ground it was 60 ft in a tree. So I'm thinking bobcat dogs push it around the mtn probably 3/4 of a mile. I go in again same thing it bails runs about 1/2 mile this time and trees. At this point I'm pretty deep in this WMA so I go to the top of the mtn to try to push this critter to the river if he jumps again finally I make to the tree and its a boar coon in the tree. This happened again in the same area bought a month later I rolled both coons and haven't ever done it again

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Registered: Oct 2013
Location: Maryland
Posts: 2633

Funny thing about deer being chased...most of the time for some strange reason, I guess it's the scent that has to be different, a dog that loves to run deer will prefer a big buck. Many times I have seen dogs that showed no interest in deer unless they were in rut. The old general rule was always that if the dogs got on a track and ran it for 20 minutes they were out of hearing and you probably would not get them back that night. That was before the days of the tracking collar. Most of the time that rule is true.
Strangely enough just as most dogs prefer a big old buck there are a few that would rather run a doe. Especially this time of year the does still have their yearlings with them and they haven't drove them away to breed. They are still kind of "worried" about the yearling{s}.
Couple this type dog with a big ole' fat doe that has been hanging around the same 15 acre area and it can get pretty confusing. The doe will do a big circle around the area it calls home. It might criss cross back and forth and it will be very hard for the handler/hunter to ever see. This type situation can be very difficult to tell if it is a red fox or a deer unless you get close to the track and smell that "almost like a skunk" scent of the red fox. In the spring and early summer foxes will often bark at the dogs chasing them.
Further confusion comes in when you start trying to break a deer chaser. Most dogs are smarter than you might think and they pick up pretty quick that deer are not for them. But it's so much fun they just have to learn to lie. I wish I had a hundred dollar bill for every coon hunter that uttered those famous last words..."aint no way my dog runs deer"...then go hunting and see his dog blast a red hot track out of a stream bottom up onto high ground and tree on the edge of a field...only to find no coon in the tree. This type dog is often smart enough to grab a big tree. The sad part is that there is an unbelievable number of hunters that never figure this out. You would think they would eventually get tired of having to make excuses {or make up bobcat stories.}

Edit: Deer run different when being chased by the heat of a real live honest to god pack of deer smoking hounds that were bred and trained to do just that. Daytime or night a pack might drive one into the next county...but a single dog or two that are really not supposed to be doing it anyways, now that is where the confusion can start. Way different situation.

Last edited by msinc on 10-15-2014 at 12:01 AM

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Registered: Oct 2011
Location: WV
Posts: 139

Good discussion, I tend to agree with msinc.

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Registered: Jun 2007
Location: jacksonville, nc
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my dogs ran a fox for a good long time and when they got close to the road I was able to catch them. then I heard the fox bark a couple of times. I thought that was strange and figured the fox was taungting the dogs and just saying good bye. many times the fox will run right to the edge of a road and double back. the dogs will spill out onto the road wondering where the fox went. one time they were making so much noise I thought they were after a walking bear. I stood there waiting on a bear to bust out but instead a fox came out and walked off.

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Registered: Oct 2013
Location: Maryland
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quote:

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Originally posted by muleman232
Good discussion, I tend to agree with msinc.

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