Registered: Apr 2012
Location: virginia
Posts: 157

Just came home that night, knew I would not take an outstanding 11 month pup back! However now several are saying my pup is ill dog. I know now I should have questioned the ruling. Dog A and Dog B are treed, been treeing together for ten minutes, no problems heard. Four handlers arrive in sight of tree. I see, and would assume, all see Dogs A and B treed side by side. I am in rear of party, that is why I know they saw what I saw. Dog A is a Plott, about two foot wide in back, probably not been out in six months. Dog B is 11 month old Walker pup, and I know this does not matter, however this is them. Two dogs are treed at the opposite side of small creek maybe 30 foot wide. We on one side the dogs on other side, maybe 30 feet. Soon as handler of Dog A gets about half way across creek, Dog A just piles over on Dog B and dogfight begins. Handler of Dog C yells " Scratch that dog", when they become untangled Dog B puts Dog A off the bank and goes back to treeing. At this time Handler C yells "Scratch that dog too". I say no you only scratch the aggressor. Judge, which is also Handler D, says yes scratch both dogs because I only saw two dogs coming down the hill. Handler A , which is also the guide, is screaming at me that his dog has never fought. I say until now, maybe. I should have questioned this ruling, Handlers C reaction tells it all. The judge, in my opinion, wanted me gone and did not want to scratch guides dog and not mine. Could not get an overrule with this group, as Handler C also wanted me gone. This is same group, judge also, that I posted that did not know rules well enough. This cast hunted from Richlands Virginia on March 01, 2014, and I note this as not a bad reflection on this club. I have stated previously, I belief the officers of this club to be very competent. I do so because I want to call this group out as incompetent , and in my opinion more. You must have a good judge to have a good hunt!

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Registered: Mar 2008
Location: Western N.Y.
Posts: 4005

Not much you could have done, No master of hounds will reverse a scratch for fighting if a cast vote didnt. He cant he wasnt there.

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Registered: Mar 2013
Location: Eastern Shore Maryland
Posts: 313

Chalk it up as a bad break. You had every right to question the scratch, but it's unlikely that any MOH or panel would overturn a majority vote, if they all stuck to their story back at the club.

If you know your dog isn't ill, you'll probably never get scratched for fighting again. On a positive note, that's one write up against the other dog also. If he truly does have a problem, it will come out again. You've got to write them up to weed them out.

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Registered: Dec 2003
Location: cincinnati, ohio
Posts: 745

Sometimes you just have to take one for the team and scratch your own for fighting too.

Like Shorecooner said above, if your hunting something that isn't mean, you've got nothing to worry about in the future.

I've scratched a dog or two I've owned for fighting before and didn't like it, but its worth getting a write up on the other one as well. He'll likely get another one in the near future and be in time out for a while.

Hope your future hunts go better for you in the future.

Justin Tumbleson

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Registered: Aug 2003
Location: S. Ga.
Posts: 4608

Judges decision, no vote needed and MOH is not suppose to overturn.

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Registered: Jan 2011
Location: Maryland
Posts: 582

sundog32

In response to your statement "Could not get an overrule with this group, as Handler C also wanted me gone", it's apparent you are not knowledgeable with authority of a hunting judge as defined on page 63 of the current rulebook -

The Hunting Judge has complete authority and is responsible for scoring all situations with exception to three situations only.
The following three situations go directly to a majority of the cast vote:
a. Scoring a tree (plus, minus, or circle). This
does not include; 1) the decision on whether
or not the coon could cross out to an adjoining
tree or scoring multiple trees as one tree or; 2)
whether the game seen is a coon or off-game.
The Hunting Judge makes those decisions but
they may be questioned by a handler as outlined
below (5).
b. Calling time out. See Rule 7 of the Nite Hunt
Honor Rules.
c. Whether or not dogs are treed on a previously
scored tree


Whether or not you got screwed it's hard to say, since none of us were in the cast and we're only hearing your side of the story.

If the judge states he saw both dogs fighting and scratches them including yours there isn't much you can do except question it and immediately return to the club for a MOH ruling, which 99.99% of the time is going to side with the judge.

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Registered: Jan 2013
Location: Cedar Bluff Va
Posts: 340

The way it was explained when the rest of the cast came
back to the club house. Your dog was growling when you got it out the box & the 15 min rule was put
on him for not hunting & then the redbone treed (not plott) and when the 5 min.was up your dog follows the cast to the tree . That's when the
fight started . Both dogs were scratched because the
aggressor could not be determined.
!!!!!JUDGE MADE RIGHT DECISION !!!!

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Registered: Jan 2013
Location: Cedar Bluff Va
Posts: 340

!! Both dogs were reported also !!!

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Registered: Mar 2008
Location: Western N.Y.
Posts: 4005

quote:

---

Originally posted by MikeR
sundog32

In response to your statement "Could not get an overrule with this group, as Handler C also wanted me gone", it's apparent you are not knowledgeable with authority of a hunting judge as defined on page 63 of the current rulebook -

The Hunting Judge has complete authority and is responsible for scoring all situations with exception to three situations only.
The following three situations go directly to a majority of the cast vote:
a. Scoring a tree (plus, minus, or circle). This
does not include; 1) the decision on whether
or not the coon could cross out to an adjoining
tree or scoring multiple trees as one tree or; 2)
whether the game seen is a coon or off-game.
The Hunting Judge makes those decisions but
they may be questioned by a handler as outlined
below (5).
b. Calling time out. See Rule 7 of the Nite Hunt
Honor Rules.
c. Whether or not dogs are treed on a previously
scored tree


Whether or not you got screwed it's hard to say, since none of us were in the cast and we're only hearing your side of the story.

If the judge states he saw both dogs fighting and scratches them including yours there isn't much you can do except question it and immediately return to the club for a MOH ruling, which 99.99% of the time is going to side with the judge.

---

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Last edited by john Duemmer on 03-20-2014 at 12:52 AM

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Registered: Apr 2012
Location: virginia
Posts: 157

Sir, that is exactly why I make this post, from what I had heard. Only now you have confirmed for me what I only though. My dog did not come out of box growling, my dog did not follow us to the tree, the fifteen minutes was put on my dog after we had stood in one place for almost an hour. This as Dog D WAS .77 mile in one direction and Dog C could have been a half mile in other direction. I say call time out, judge says no dogs will get minus strike. Judge says he had that one pulled on him at Walker Days. I think yes you did! I am shocked that three grown men all conspired to lie about the situation. All this is very disappointing to me. I did not go back to clubhouse because to me it was a dead issue. But unreal lies! I was not raised to lie. Lie and try to destroy a dog and worst a person! It is very disappointing! My mother always said she would take a thief over a liar!

Last edited by sundog32 on 03-20-2014 at 03:36 AM

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Registered: Apr 2012
Location: virginia
Posts: 157

Mike R, I do not know all I should. I did however know more than the judge, and I am trying to learn. This cast only makes me think what is the use.

Last edited by sundog32 on 03-20-2014 at 02:18 AM

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Registered: Apr 2012
Location: virginia
Posts: 157

Cool, mine will never be reported again, for I will be there, but he will never. However if you would like to see for yourself what a mean hound he is I have tons of great places to hunt, and would love to go and show him. Judge made right decision if all he saw was what he said, and I could have given him the benefit of doubt, until you have confirmed what I though. Because any one that is a part of such lies cannot be trusted!

Last edited by sundog32 on 03-20-2014 at 02:41 AM

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Registered: Jan 2011
Location: Maryland
Posts: 582

quote:

---

Originally posted by john Duemmer
I think maybe its you that misunderstands this rule, the situations you listed are ALWAYS voted on.
Any decision made by a hunting judge can be overturned by a majority vote of the cast. The vote comes before a ? is placed on the card.

---

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Registered: Apr 2012
Location: virginia
Posts: 157

Thank you again MikeR, I was wrong on that.

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Registered: Jun 2012
Location: Virginia
Posts: 231

Still waiting to see how your Moondog leopard hunts. Phone number below as it has been, haven't had a call yet. Bring your walker pup also. Good luck.

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Registered: Mar 2008
Location: Western N.Y.
Posts: 4005

quote:

---

Originally posted by MikeR
Read my post again.... slowly. Voting situations I posted are listed VERBATUM from the rule book.

---

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Registered: Jan 2013
Location: Cedar Bluff Va
Posts: 340

If you know the rules, then just ask them to let you judge & guide .
Because that is what most clubs have trouble finding. Bring your dog because it may have been an isolated
case. Those guys at that club will go out of their way to
help you have a good time ! Meetings are the first Tuesday of every month. They have a rules discussion at each meeting to try to help everyone to better understand the rules so everyone can have a better hunt ! Dogs will be dogs & people will be people !!!!

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Registered: Apr 2012
Location: virginia
Posts: 157

Appreciate your comments

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Registered: Mar 2013
Location: Eastern Shore Maryland
Posts: 313

quote:

---

Originally posted by sundog32
My mother always said she would take a thief over a liar!

---

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Registered: Aug 2008
Location: SE Ohio, Glouster
Posts: 2244

It is my opinion that Mike R has the correct interpretation of the rules. Mr. Duemmer, I understand what you are saying but here is whereI differ with your interpretation.

As a judge, You have a responsibility to make a decision on all situations except the ones mentioned by MikeR. Now if an cast member does not agree with the judges decision, they retain the right to put a question on the card, but they DO NOT retain the right to over rule the judge on his decision. No matter if its minusing a dog for quitting a track, or making a call as to if a dog moved after it was declared treed, or the most often used rule(demanding the stationary be applied). Every other cast member retains the right to put a question on the card, but they do not over rule a judges decision. Only the master of hounds can do that. The ONLY exceptions to this is the rules mentioned by MikeR

So (anybody in the cast that disagrees with the judges ruling) can place a question on the card, but they do not get to change the scoring of this scenario, and then they keep on hunting until a scratchabe offense occurs in which you are then required to immediately return to the master of hounds if a question gets placed on the card for that scratch able offense.

I am in no way an expert on these rules, but I'm pretty sure that is how the rules are to be applied.

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Registered: Aug 2008
Location: North GA.
Posts: 1226

quote:

---

Originally posted by shorecooner
Interesting! My father always says " anybody that will lie to you, would probably steel from you too."

I've found that to be very true...

---

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Registered: Mar 2009
Location: tn
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Rule book page 59 Questioning a judge section (b).
I believe John is correct in his understanding.

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Registered: Mar 2008
Location: Western N.Y.
Posts: 4005

quote:

---

Originally posted by Rocketman55
It is my opinion that Mike R has the correct interpretation of the rules. Mr. Duemmer, I understand what you are saying but here is whereI differ with your interpretation.

As a judge, You have a responsibility to make a decision on all situations except the ones mentioned by MikeR. Now if an cast member does not agree with the judges decision, they retain the right to put a question on the card, but they DO NOT retain the right to over rule the judge on his decision. No matter if its minusing a dog for quitting a track, or making a call as to if a dog moved after it was declared treed, or the most often used rule(demanding the stationary be applied). Every other cast member retains the right to put a question on the card, but they do not over rule a judges decision. Only the master of hounds can do that. The ONLY exceptions to this is the rules mentioned by MikeR

So (anybody in the cast that disagrees with the judges ruling) can place a question on the card, but they do not get to change the scoring of this scenario, and then they keep on hunting until a scratchabe offense occurs in which you are then required to immediately return to the master of hounds if a question gets placed on the card for that scratch able offense.

I am in no way an expert on these rules, but I'm pretty sure that is how the rules are to be applied.

---

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Last edited by john Duemmer on 03-21-2014 at 12:28 AM

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Registered: Aug 2008
Location: SE Ohio, Glouster
Posts: 2244

I think now I do stand corrected John. You are right. It takes a (majority to overturn) as you stated. Anything less than a majority it remains as the judge scored it, with the right to question by anyone that is not satisfied.

Key word here is (MAJORITY)

I should have known you would be right, cause most generally you are. Thanks for straightening me out!!!

Good hunting to you!!

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Registered: Jan 2011
Location: Maryland
Posts: 582

john
I'm not sure I agree but I could be wrong. The example you gave is a SCORING situation not a SCRATCHABLE offense.

I've never seen a situation where a dog fight occured and a hunting judge scratched a dog or dogs involved where their decision to scratch dog(s) was questioned and a vote was called for.

If a scratchable offense (fighting in this case) can be questioned, voted on and overturned then I fail to see what a purpose of a hunting judge is then except to act as secretary for a cast? What if it's a 3 dog cast and 2 buddy's always question a judges call, vote and overturn it. What authority does a judge have as stated in the rule book if EVERYTHING can be questioned, voted on and potentially overturned .

The rule books states criteria for jselection of judges and we always hear and read about strong honest and fair judges who control a cast vs. weak judges that let things get out of control. I guess I can't comprehend how a judge can be a strong judge and have authority when every call they make can potentially be over ruled.

I'm going to call Paul Fredrick for clarification on a hunting judges authority in a scratchable offense situation.

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