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timber hunter
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Aug 2009
Location:
Posts: 3985

Breed Outcrosses

About 8 to 10 months ago there was a thread on here. I did'nt really take it serious, I thought it was not something that was going to happen. But now that it has what does everyone think?

1. Can it hurt our breed

2. Will it help other breeds

3. What are the positives and negatives

4. Would you consider breeding a male or female Redbone to a Walker or another breed?

Last edited by timber hunter on 11-14-2013 at 01:58 AM

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Old Post 11-13-2013 11:39 PM
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OLD TIMER
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Jun 2003
Location: Minnesota
Posts: 1610

Nope-never

I am happy with treeing game that can be seen. Not chasing every animal that God but in the woods. Just having a darn good time treeing coon with good "true" Redbones.

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Mossybuck
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Jan 2010
Location: NC
Posts: 274

I must have missed something. What has happened?

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Old Post 11-14-2013 04:54 PM
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oklared
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Registered: May 2005
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JOHN THATS A CAN OF WORMS THAT KNOW ONE AGREE'S ON.

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Old Post 11-14-2013 09:47 PM
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Crazy Luke
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Mar 2007
Location: NJ
Posts: 406

After 20 years

So after 20 something years of messing with these dogs and knowing something about Registered Holstein Cows, Registered Yorkshire Hogs and Registered Suffolk Sheep here is my conclusion, and oh I almost forgot. Personally knowing and mentoring under Glenn Bosley.....What is a true redbone????????Mine have Black and Tan, bloodhound, Irish setter, Boxer and I have heard Black Mouth Cur in them, oh and don't forget some walker.... Mr. Bosley told me he sold the first Buckskin Plott that was registered back in the forties and it was a redbone.....Mr Bosley did not have tracking equipment like we have today so he wanted his dogs to stay within calling range. Today the dogs I want to hunt have a different style then his...I think every breeder should breed for the style that he choses...Their are enough different styles that people can best chose what suits them...Personally I think the breed suffered when past breeders tried to breed a solid red coonhound........As far as breeding goes. Only once can another breed be crossed into the (red) line.. After that (breeding a half breed back to the a non red dog) the pups will become more like the non red dog... So no longer will it be a red dog. As far as I am concerned as long as it fits the breed standards it is a redbone...It used to say in the Redbooks in the color section that no more white the a hand could cover or something like that..Got to check my 1992 rebook.. Anyway...Many different kinds of animals have changed shape and color with the advent of crossbreeding.....Has anyone ever seen 7/8 Semital cattle... I think that breed standard is what is most important to the redbone breed, for if it does not look like a redbone it prolly isn't... Again, once a redbone is bred to another breed and the progeny is bred back to the other breed, it will not be a redbone but it will become the other breed with a redbone background....Hope all that makes sense. I see a change even in show dogs. They no longer look like the large boned redbones that Glen owned, but a lot are penciled footed, fined boned that to me, surely looks like something else has been added.... Now I want to say this.. Everyone that owns a redbone feeds their own redbone and can breed to which ever suits them best. Myself I have a GPS and don't want a dog that stands at my feet or comes back and says to me " "I am done hunting here." They had better get gone and stay gone....I like them Loud.They had better be accurate and not a slick treeer. Quick to open and drift a track opening enough to know which way they are going. Not a babbler or blabber mouth on track. I would love one that could tree a lay up but I believe that could be something learned, not a trait.......Well I have probably peed a lot of people off and that's not my intention....Some might say, " Lucas, what have you done that makes you an expert?" My reply to them is this. I am not an expert, but bred the only redbone that made it to the 70 dog $kc World Hunt semi's... I got as much satisfaction out of seeing someone else make it there, with a pup that came from my kennel, then from me making it myself....Hope to have some more make some world hunts somewhere, got his momma and sister here to make some more. So if that is what you are looking for give me a holler. I hope I can send you a pup of that style and caliber.... Thanks for reading and lets stay friends whatever your endeavors... One last thought...Let's not forget that there is only peasants blood flowing through the veins of these royal dogs...Mark Lucas, Monroeville NJ.

Last edited by Crazy Luke on 11-15-2013 at 02:54 AM

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Old Post 11-15-2013 02:10 AM
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tylerman
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Registered: Jun 2006
Location: indiana
Posts: 6639

I had a guy at A.O. tell me he bred his walker male to red female in Ohio , someone who thinks high of their red dogs..so if its true I reckon its still going on.Its their dog,they can do what they want.

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Old Post 11-15-2013 04:27 PM
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Danny McCleskey
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Jan 2008
Location: North Alabama
Posts: 367

Mark,
I visited Glenn Bosley a few times and talked to him several times.
I thought I would post what he wrote about breeding. This was first published in the 1973 American Redbone Association Redbook in 1973 and again in 1996. Sid Dowd also published it in his Tree Hound magazine around 1980.

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Old Post 11-15-2013 06:47 PM
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Crazy Luke
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Mar 2007
Location: NJ
Posts: 406

Danny

Thanks for posting that...I did say he was my mentor but that does not mean that we both want the same thing. I sold Mr. Bosely a Billy The Kid female and he called me a few weeks later saying that she hunted to far for him...Like I said, we have different agendas. I owned a gyp I called Molly that was Elmo's sister off of Raider Jr... She was a treeeee dog but had to walk hunt her...And to be honest I probably would have sent that gator, Jr. to visit with Jesus.... Like I said I have learned a lot in 20 plus years... Like I said in my post, every person has to feed the dog or dogs they own... I know I like to competition hunt the dogs I own and win some of the time. Most people walk away and tell me they never have seen a redbone hunt like that.... I know over the years I have seen some sorry excuses for dogs that were redbones and I was embarrassed for the redbone breed.... I do believe in line breeding on the traits that a dog posses and that the female is a vital part in the final product... I probably would agree pretty closely as to the principles that Glenn practiced just want a different final product.... I just don't see the hypocrisy of it when his dogs would throw several Back and tans when bred the wrong way.... I know I had several here.... Any how like I said, when it's all said and done , Let's still be friends...Lucas

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Old Post 11-15-2013 11:21 PM
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Sawblade
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Registered: Jun 2003
Location: Pennsylvania
Posts: 1589

truth is the important thing

Weather a person cross breeds a dog or not is unimportant. The important thing is that the person who make the cross NEVER lies about the pedigree. Some folks like purebreds some like muts. to each his own. No one should like a liar.

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Proud Breeder of the following dogs
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NiteCh Sawblade Red Reckon
NiteCh Brasee Red Penny
NiteCh Nacalus Mandolin
Yellow River Fiddle II " good reproducer"
NiteCh Krasa Sawblade Quikstuf Bone
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Old Post 11-22-2013 03:33 PM
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timber hunter
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Aug 2009
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I agree

Kelly that's really a good portion about what the issue's are regarding cross breeding!!! (honesty, integrity and not lieing). I think that it is good in the sense instead of registering a hound single reg, that you actually can know the heritage behind him/her. People don't have to have a cross bred dog if they don't want to. Those that do it makes it safer for everyone!! JMO, Thanks John

Last edited by timber hunter on 11-23-2013 at 01:22 PM

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Old Post 11-22-2013 10:25 PM
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Bigridge kennel
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Registered: Jun 2013
Location: Western NC
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I bred my registered redbone to a registered walker and they all look like Black and Tans . Early early starting dogs bear and coon

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Old Post 11-23-2013 03:56 AM
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jdgher
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Jul 2003
Location: East central Illinois.
Posts: 1702

Re: truth is the important thing

quote:
Originally posted by Sawblade
Weather a person cross breeds a dog or not is unimportant. The important thing is that the person who make the cross NEVER lies about the pedigree. Some folks like purebreds some like muts. to each his own. No one should like a liar.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Agree totally and I want the papers to be accurate. If a single registered dog is in the pedigree I would like to know it. With the tight rules we have on single registration, I expect some will lie and put false papers on dogs. Where as, if they could single register those outcross dogs without lieing they probably would and we would know about it. Then we have a choice if we want to breed to outcross blood or not.
Just a thought. :-)

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Old Post 11-25-2013 12:31 AM
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masonman1974
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Mar 2013
Location: richmond ky
Posts: 636

quote:
Originally posted by Mossybuck
I must have missed something. What has happened?

im fairly new but also fairly knowlegable.it happened over and over for many years,is what I personaly believe,so you take a breeder that has been makin crosses all within the red breed,he would bet you his farm that his dogs are purebred reds but in fact the dogs he started with probably got dna of several coonhound bloodlines....I own a coondog he is red ,he is supposed to be a purbreed reddog but if you painted him black and white , then I would have a walker ,because theres nothing else that makes him a redbone than his color,he sure don't hunt like a redbone[because people say they wont hunt] well how did I get a redbone that has outhunted most every other color I have turned him lose with[if a redbone wont hunt]ill tell you how ,crossbreeding.

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Old Post 11-25-2013 05:48 AM
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Richard Lambert
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Registered: Aug 2004
Location: Chattanooga, Tn
Posts: 22586

quote:
Originally posted by masonman1974
....... breeder that has been makin crosses all within the red breed.... but in fact the dogs he started with probably got dna of several coonhound bloodlines....he sure don't hunt like a redbone[because people say they wont hunt] well how did I get a redbone that has outhunted most every other color I have turned him lose with[if a redbone wont hunt]ill tell you how ,crossbreeding.


You can't believe what "people say". Some Redbones will hunt like a walker. It is true that the majority of them won't, but some will. That does not make them part walker. If a line of dogs had a crossbred in them 25-30 yrs ago but were then purebred ever since, do you think that they still have some genes from that one cross or that they still carry any of those traits?

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Old Post 11-25-2013 01:44 PM
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timber hunter
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Registered: Aug 2009
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YA

i noticed that as well, My Reddogs have always hunted well, comparable to the best in any breed!!! That does not help our breed. I do love those words I often hear, tha'ts the loudest redbone I have ever heard or that's the best redbone I have seen! If more people would put their good reddogs in the hunts there would be less of that prejudice attitude!!!

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Old Post 11-25-2013 05:05 PM
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Crazy Luke
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Registered: Mar 2007
Location: NJ
Posts: 406

Question??????

I keep hearing the term "true" and "pure" and keep asking myself this question... What is a pure or true redbone?????? I believe that if most of us looked deep enough into the bloodlines we own we would see that there are neither pure nor true redbones....So I guess, that as UKC has set up the rules defining that as being after 3 generations the single registered dog becomes a purebred, that as a breed that should be sufficient for all concerned... Not so being, as not only UKC sets the rules for this but also the NRCA has the final say in this matter.... So there lies the problem...It is not a slant on them but rules that have been set forth by the NRCA... I am not badmouthing or slandering the NRCA. Only I am saying that they are the inhibiting factor in allowing crossbreds that follow breed standards into the breed registry.... If we can't talk about problems in an open and honest way then things will continue to be a problem.. Again as Kelly stated, I think honesty is the only way to solve any problem no matter the size... Can UKC recognize the ARCA and allow them an equal say... I don't know. But most of us belong to both...Again... In the end, lets stay friends. Lucas

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Old Post 11-25-2013 05:28 PM
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Richard Lambert
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Aug 2004
Location: Chattanooga, Tn
Posts: 22586

Re: Question??????

quote:
Originally posted by Crazy Luke
I keep hearing the term "true" and "pure" and keep asking myself this question....... So there lies the problem...It is not a slant on them but rules that have been set forth by the NRCA... I am not badmouthing or slandering the NRCA. ...Again... In the end, lets stay friends. Lucas

I guess everyone has their own definition about what is "pure" or "true". Some people use traits to define "pure" or "true' and some use genetics.

Isn't the NRCA just the sum of the majority of it's members?

I have no problem being friends with someone that I disagree with. I disagree on something with just about every one that I know.

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Old Post 11-25-2013 08:57 PM
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Don Barnett Sr
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Feb 2008
Location: Arkansas
Posts: 1182

Pure X Truth

I agree to dieagree. To each his own.we all have to live with our decisions.

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Old Post 11-25-2013 10:01 PM
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Crazy Luke
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Mar 2007
Location: NJ
Posts: 406

So some more questions

#1 If a redbone has white toe nails, even one white toenail, is it a pure redbone? #2 If a redbone has red striped toenails, is it a true redbone? #3 If a redbone has a white stripe from it pecker to the front of its chest, is it a true redbone.#4 If when they get old their whole head turns white all the way past there ears, are they a true redbone?#5 If the pups that come off them are off color/B&T are they a true redbone?#6 If the white on their chest is as much as a size ten shoe, are they a true redbone. #7 Does a PR pedigree alone make it a true redbone even if in the fourth generation there are two walkers.? Some of the things I have seen in PR redbones.. Hey they might even be yours.....Ha... Again let it be said, Let's still be friends when it's all said and done. Lucas

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Old Post 11-25-2013 11:15 PM
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Richard Lambert
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Registered: Aug 2004
Location: Chattanooga, Tn
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My definition: If it meets the official Breed Standards(read them) then it is a "true" Redbone. If it is PR bred then it is a "pure" Redbone. You pretty much have to go by what is on the papers. But speculaton or what "you think" someone has done can effect your judgement to a certain extent. I have looked at hounds and then looked at their papers and thought, "no way".

If a Redbone chops and squeaks on track, is it a "true" Redbone? If a Redbone is hot-nosed, is it a "true" Redbone? If a Redbone has a long pencil head or a short wide head, are they a "true" Redbone?

Last edited by Richard Lambert on 11-26-2013 at 03:07 PM

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Old Post 11-26-2013 03:01 PM
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masonman1974
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Mar 2013
Location: richmond ky
Posts: 636

just because I believe outcrossing has happened in years past ,has nothing to do with how proud I am to hunt a purebred redbone that every man in my cast stares at like he is some sort of alien dog that they have never seen before.....every cast...so I now watch there eyes while we go into and handling dogs on first tree,i never let them see me watching them look at ole red,it makes my hunt,and about every other cast their is usually at least one walkerman that gets totally fixated on my hound all nite ,at every tree,just staring in disbelief or awe.the walker men will never experience this type satisfacation..I ,myself did not know this type satisfaction until we started hitting the hunts around here ,there is just no reddogs around here ,unless Mike Grimes comes up this way for a comp. hunt.and hey guys im not exzaggerating...of course never say never but I don't think ill ever hunt any thing but red....Does anyone else have this experience at the comp. hunts? o yea back to the subject ,and again I am fairly new ,but I would hunt a outcross but only if he was solid RED..

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Old Post 11-26-2013 08:04 PM
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masonman1974
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Mar 2013
Location: richmond ky
Posts: 636

Re: Thunder...

quote:
Originally posted by MightyOaks'Leps
Thunder is out of Red Oaks' Jackie and magnum Last season when I took 12 hides in to the Furrier in December from the night before, an elderly man was at the furrier. He hunts Walkers and hunts the same Army Corp of engineer ground that I hunt. He asked me if I was a trapper. I responded no, that I hunt a Redbone. He told me that no red dog he had ever hunted with could tree a coon. He asked me where I hunt at...I told him. He said..."ain't no way!!". The furrier was skinning a coon and just kind of grinned at me and winked.
I seem to hear that response from a lot of different houndsmen.
Thunder made over 100 trees last season, all on Federal ground. I Had him out last week for a night, hunted for 3 hours and treed 5 trees and 1 den that I could see up the trunk on...with the fanny of the coon lodged into a crevice inside.
Thunder is from a family line of Redbones bred by Dennis VanBuren for years. He is just as good or better than most hounds I've hunted with and owned...and I used to run some really fine Walkers and Blue ticks some years ago. I'm content with my solid red family line bred hound...lol.


I have female out of full sis to your thunder dog my young female is out of lilly

Last edited by masonman1974 on 11-26-2013 at 10:55 PM

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Old Post 11-26-2013 10:50 PM
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masonman1974
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Mar 2013
Location: richmond ky
Posts: 636

can you hunt a single reg. reddog in the world?and if so were you to finally win the world with a redbone that is single reg. would that worldch. be a desireable stud in the redbone world?

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Old Post 11-27-2013 12:48 AM
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sox12
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Jun 2006
Location: Ohio
Posts: 1114

The most important thing is we all try to breed the best redbone posssible to win.there is a lot of good blooded redbone out their that produces winners,that has a coon treed at the end of the trail.not slick treed.all of us in the redbone breed want the same thing we need to work together as a redbone family to move forward.

Happy Thanksgivin

George Steffes

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Old Post 11-27-2013 04:08 PM
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Richard Lambert
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Aug 2004
Location: Chattanooga, Tn
Posts: 22586

quote:
Originally posted by sox12
The most important thing is we all try to breed the best redbone posssible to win.

Now there in lies the problem. Everyone has their own opinion as to what "the most important thing" is. Some think that the "most important thing" is to breed a red colored dog that can win big. Some think that the "most important thing" is to breed a pure bred Redbone that can win. There are some that think the "most important thing" is to breed a "true old time Redbone" and don't care about winning. And then there are those that think that they can breed a combination of all of the above. And everyone doesn't even agree on what the "best Redbone possible is".

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Old Post 11-27-2013 04:37 PM
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