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D.Boyd
UKC Forum Member

Registered: May 2012
Location: Birmingham,Al
Posts: 89

Judge this??

Three dog cast. All dogs get treed. When we get there 2 dogs on one tree 1 on another 30 yards apart. Judge scores it as 2 trees. We walk from trees about 2 minutes and turn back loose. After a couple minutes 1 dog is struck and treed behind us in the general area of the last 2 trees and a little later the other 2 are treed. We start that way and as we arrive all dogs are seen on 1 tree and then as we get close 2 are seen leaving and go and get on their original tree that we had already scored. All of the cast see the 2 leave. The other dog is on her original tree. Now remember the judge originally scored it as 2 trees. Now the judge says the 2 moving were under the canoPy of one tree,which I've never seen in the rules. Question is how should the 2 dogs moving be scored? This happened in the semi finals of the world hunt. I know how it should have been scored. Just want more opinions. The judge didn't minus the dogs for moving if y'all want to know. Very weak judging.

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09-26-2012 08:23 PM

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Slough
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Registered: Aug 2003
Location: S. Ga.
Posts: 4608

You kinda lost me. After the turn back, were all three dogs called treed? The tree that the 2 were seen leaving was not a tree that had been previously scored? The dog that stayed was on a tree that had not been scored?

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09-26-2012 08:32 PM

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D.Boyd
UKC Forum Member

Registered: May 2012
Location: Birmingham,Al
Posts: 89

All dogs treed in. Upon arriving 2 are seen moving. The one that stayed was on her original tree and the 2 that left go to their original tree. The whole cast see both dogs leave the one tree and go to their previously scored tree. They were all called treed.

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09-26-2012 08:47 PM

Slough
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Aug 2003
Location: S. Ga.
Posts: 4608

quote:
Originally posted by D.Boyd
The one that stayed was on her original tree They were all called treed.

I am taking it that her original tree is one that has not been scored.

If so, the 2 dogs that left are minused their tree points. Since they went on to a previously scored tree, their strike points are deleted.

If I am understanding the scenerio correctly.

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09-26-2012 09:21 PM

nccoonhunter197
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Jun 2008
Location: Taylorsville, NC
Posts: 1320

Did they go back to the two previously scored trees? If so points are deleted. If they left a tree that had not been scored then tney are minused.

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09-26-2012 09:24 PM

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River Birch Run
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Jun 2007
Location:
Posts: 1176

So all three dogs were at trees already scored?? Or was the dog that didn't move on a tree that had never been scored? Regardless the dogs seen moving are minused if they were treed. They were then retreed and it was agreed by the cast it was one of the same tree's ( or I guess none hunting judge) they could be handled without the 5 being dead. If the trees were scored as 2 trees the 1st time around then it has to be scored the same way the 2nd time.

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09-26-2012 09:26 PM

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D.Boyd
UKC Forum Member

Registered: May 2012
Location: Birmingham,Al
Posts: 89

The dogs moving was the main point and as y'all said should have been minused.

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09-26-2012 09:38 PM

GA DAWG
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Jun 2003
Location: North GA
Posts: 14395

If its the same 2 trees that had been scored as one. They are not minused. I asked a similar question about 2 trees. Mine was as we are walking in. I see a dog leave its tree and go to others. I minus right off cause they are a good piece apart. Then the dog goes back to its tree. Get there and its one tree. According to ukc. I go back and unminus the dog that moved. Be the same thing here im reverse IF it was the 2 trees involved in the first scoring. If not. They are minused.

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09-26-2012 09:41 PM

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john Duemmer
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Mar 2008
Location: Western N.Y.
Posts: 4005

You dont say? was the 5 run? Did all this happen on previously scored trees? If all this happened on previously scored trees put a line through all scores and get the heck outa there Lol. In the future if you use A<B<C to represent the dogs it will be much easier to understand your ?

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09-26-2012 09:47 PM

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Mark V.
UKC Forum Member

Registered: May 2004
Location: Sullivan IL.
Posts: 3060

I would think if a tree call was given and the judge took them and run the 5 then dogs would be - for moveing thae handler should have never treed his dog.

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09-26-2012 10:08 PM

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jweaver
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Feb 2012
Location: ohio
Posts: 31

Question; Regardless if trees were previously scored or not dogs would have been minused for leaving tree. Right?

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09-26-2012 10:27 PM

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Slough
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Aug 2003
Location: S. Ga.
Posts: 4608

quote:
Originally posted by jweaver
Question; Regardless if trees were previously scored or not dogs would have been minused for leaving tree. Right?

Cant score on a previously scored tree

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09-26-2012 10:41 PM

jweaver
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Feb 2012
Location: ohio
Posts: 31

quote:
Originally posted by Slough
Cant score on a previously scored tree

Ok Slough, don't take this the wrong way cause I'm just asking because I'm curious and I don't know. Now say your walking towards the dogs and before you can see all the dogs on the tree, you see the two dogs leaving the area (let's say they're all on the paper again) and your not sure if they were on the previously scored tree or not, how would you judge them

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09-26-2012 11:08 PM

dperry
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Apr 2007
Location:
Posts: 623

No minus. Same tree. Handle the dogs. When you questioned it what did the MOH say?

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09-26-2012 11:13 PM

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Slough
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Aug 2003
Location: S. Ga.
Posts: 4608

quote:
Originally posted by jweaver
Ok Slough, don't take this the wrong way cause I'm just asking because I'm curious and I don't know. Now say your walking towards the dogs and before you can see all the dogs on the tree, you see the two dogs leaving the area (let's say they're all on the paper again) and your not sure if they were on the previously scored tree or not, how would you judge them

If the dog left is on a previoulsy scored tree and all dogs were treed together, I delete all tree points and the dog that stayed strike points. UKC says give benefit to dog when in question.

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09-26-2012 11:15 PM

southernthunder
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Aug 2012
Location: Oklahoma
Posts: 4884

quote:
Originally posted by jweaver
Question; Regardless if trees were previously scored or not dogs would have been minused for leaving tree. Right?

that is correct! no matter what they were called treed and were seen leaving the tree to another. MINUS!!! they were suppose to be handled under that tree where they were treed period. the thing you have to remember about this is that they could have got on another tree that wasn't yet scored and had another coon. i garantee you that the judge would have wanted to score it if they did, so they have to take their minus for leaving a tree.

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Last edited by southernthunder on 09-26-2012 at 11:24 PM

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09-26-2012 11:20 PM

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D.Boyd
UKC Forum Member

Registered: May 2012
Location: Birmingham,Al
Posts: 89

quote:
Originally posted by southernthunder
that is correct! no matter what they were called treed and were seen leaving the tree to another. MINUS!!! they were suppose to be handled under that tree where they were treed period. the thing you have to remember about this is that they could have got on another tree that wasn't yet scored and had another coon. i garantee you that the judge would have wanted to score it if they did, so they have to take their minus for leaving a tree.

I agree all three dogs were declared treed and judge put it on the card. 2 dogs are seen leaving that tree and going to the tree they had already scored. The other dog was on a tree it had scored also by itself. Minus the 2 seen moving don't matter that they were already scored. What would u do if the 2 that left just went on. Minus no other way. Score what u see. We didn't know it was same tree till we handled them.

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09-26-2012 11:37 PM

GA DAWG
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Jun 2003
Location: North GA
Posts: 14395

So they did wind up back on the same 2 trees you'd just scored as one?

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09-26-2012 11:58 PM

turman
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Aug 2007
Location: Ontario, Canada
Posts: 439

This seems easy for me. All dogs treed on a tree that was already scored. Delete all dogs tree points and the two that moved can't be minused for something you can't plus them for.

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09-27-2012 12:22 AM

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englishbuddy
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Mar 2009
Location: ohio
Posts: 2315

Dogs went back to a tree already scored ..... Deleate all points on card and recast......

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09-27-2012 12:26 AM

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southernthunder
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Aug 2012
Location: Oklahoma
Posts: 4884

quote:
Originally posted by turman
This seems easy for me. All dogs treed on a tree that was already scored. Delete all dogs tree points and the two that moved can't be minused for something you can't plus them for.

yes, they should have been minused! they have to have been handled on the tree they were treeing on and not leave till handled. they were declared treed and left tree. what if they would have went 10 yards and treed another coon that hadn't been scored? they would have wanted to plus them then! what if they would have left that tree they were called treed on and went 1/4 mile to another tree already scored? they have to be minused! that was a bad call and should have been questioned.

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09-27-2012 12:31 AM

john Duemmer
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Mar 2008
Location: Western N.Y.
Posts: 4005

Sounds like a situation that should never have happened. Wasnt their a single member in that cast bright enough to simply say Judge those dogs have gone back? There was never a reason to tree those dogs, the cast should have walked in to see if they were on previously scored trees. If they were you handle and delete. If not just back out and let things playout.
Rule 5 on the card explains that in this situation dogs need not be treed for the cast to go to the tee, and it also says NO POINTS when dogs return to previously scored tree. NO POINTS means NO+ NO- NO circle...

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Last edited by john Duemmer on 09-27-2012 at 12:48 AM

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09-27-2012 12:41 AM

southernthunder
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Aug 2012
Location: Oklahoma
Posts: 4884

quote:
Originally posted by john Duemmer
Sounds like a situation that should never have happened. Wasnt their a single member in that cast bright enough to simply say Judge those dogs have gone back? There was never a reason to tree those dogs, the cast should have walked in to see if they were on previously scored trees. If they were you handle and delete. If not just back out and let things playout.

thats what they should have done, but they struck and treed them so by the rules the dogs that left the tree get minused.

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09-27-2012 12:48 AM

john Duemmer
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Registered: Mar 2008
Location: Western N.Y.
Posts: 4005

quote:
Originally posted by southernthunder
thats what they should have done, but they struck and treed them so by the rules the dogs that left the tree get minused.

You would be minusing points that dont exist, when they walked in those dogs were on a previously scored tree at that moment those points dissapeared.

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09-27-2012 12:57 AM