Registered: Aug 2006
Location: Latta, SC
Posts: 1021

I hunted a hunt a couple weeks ago.4 dog cast I treed my dog within a minute the judge trees his dog.About the 2.30 mark on the 5 min I ask the judge to put a light on the direction of my dog,The judge placed his light on my dogs treed position at 12.00 oclock,I then asked him to put a light on his dog treed position when it barked,He did and his dog was to the left about 10.00oclock position,At this point about 4.30 has elapsed from the 5 min.Before the 5 min was up, The judge states with his own mouth that his dog was a little more to the left than mine...AT THIS TIME I STATED I AGREE,the 2 other hunters did not say a word.The 5 min elapsed and as we took a few steps I stoped the cast and ask the judge what were we gonna do about those 2 dogs treed,He said we were gonna go score them.I then ask him if he had put his dog down for 125 and he stated no,and at this time the other 2 handlers chimed in to agree with the judge that the dogs were400/500 yards deep and I could not make him declare a split tree.I stated to the cast that the judge made it a point to state with his own mouth that his dog was a lil more to the left than mine..........I stated to the judge at this times I come across wrong to some folks and I stated to him that if his dog was not at my tree when we arrived he was gonna take 125,good or bad,the other handlers and the judge at this point considered me a SOB/BITCHEIN TROUBLE MAKER.The tree was minused and the judges dog was nopt there( my personal opinion is he pitched him from the start,but the other 2 handlers had no clue what had took place).I ask that he put the 2 min on his dog and he told me I had to score my tree first( he may be right on thiat).The judge wrote 75- for him on this tree ....WHAT IS YOUR OPINOIN.The judge stated to me that he would put me in the truck if I opened my mouth again...I THEN TOLD ALL THE CAST i DID NOT COME TO GIVE THEM ANYTHING...I feel with his own mouth the judge put his dog somewhere els.....SO WAS I THE TROUBLE MAKER OR WAS THE OTHER 3 WRONG ....JUST OPINION...3 OTHERS WERE THERE PLEASE RESPOND.....

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Reedy Creek Kennel

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Registered: Aug 2006
Location: Latta, SC
Posts: 1021

This took place in Darlington,S.C. ZONE 5...

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Reedy Creek Kennel

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Registered: Jun 2003
Location: Los Angeles, MN
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As a judge I want to be pretty darn sure they are split before splitting them on the card.....Its much easier to move them up later.

Sounds like you are overreacting to me...


You asked for opinions....Thats mine.

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Registered: Sep 2010
Location: New Paris, Indiana
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I would have done exactly as the judge did.

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Registered: Aug 2006
Location: Latta, SC
Posts: 1021

The judge struck his dog as he barked,I have used the wrong word when I said he pitched him ..His dog did bark,but in all honesty I think he put him on the card treed and the dog was to the left not treed in my opinion...I ask my self why would I want him to have a chNCE AT 125...because i see things just as they are,i expected him to be awarded just exactly as the dog had done good or bad...When a judge tells me his dog is to the left...I TAKE THAT AS A DIFFERENT TREE....VOICE YOUR OPINION....ITS ALL BEHIND US...I ,M WRONG I WANT TO BE CALLED OUT ON IT...IF YOU ARE WRONG I WILL CALL YOU OUT...ESPECIALLY A BIG HUNT...SMALL THINGS NOT ADDRESSED WILL BEAT YOU IN THE END...ALL OPINIONS WELCOME

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Reedy Creek Kennel

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Registered: Jan 2011
Location: Maryland
Posts: 582

IMO you got screwed by a cheating and intimaditing A hole of a judge.

The judge obviously knew the dogs were split by where his light shined in reation to the treed dogs and by his statement that his dog was a little more to the left than yours.

He can not "put you in the truck if you opened your mouth again". Questioning a call by the judge does not constitute scratching you.

If it were me I would have played it out by questioning his decision and calling for a vote. If he tried to scratch me I would have filed a complaint citing rule 19.

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Registered: Jun 2003
Location: Los Angeles, MN
Posts: 4236

None of us were there....How can we possibly determine if dogs were split or not?

MikeR, you wont get very far filing a formal comlaint at zones...

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Registered: Sep 2007
Location: Kentucky
Posts: 2713

Was the judge's dog split somewhere after you scored your tree?

Or did the judge take the 75- but you think he should have had 125-?

I have read your posts twice and I am still not 100% sure on exactly what you are saying.

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Golden Woods Bo
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Location: S. Ga.
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quote:

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Originally posted by JiM
I would have done exactly as the judge did.

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Registered: Aug 2003
Location: Indiana
Posts: 6168

quote:

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Originally posted by JiM
I would have done exactly as the judge did.

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Registered: Jun 2003
Location: Missouri
Posts: 4321

The judge may have been a little negligent. He shouldn't have admitted a dog was to the left unless he was ready to move him to 125. You probably did the right thing as a handler trying to get him to determine if the dog was split . However once something like this descends into an argument, its over with, at that point. You might as well take it and go on.

This whole business of moving dogs up is one that gets abused by judges and handlers to get an advantage.

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Last edited by John D on 09-26-2012 at 02:21 PM

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Registered: Aug 2008
Location: SE Ohio, Glouster
Posts: 2244

Well you may have gotten the short end of the stick on this one, but (in my opinion) some of it was by your handling mistake. I say this because a similar situation happened to me and I made the same handling mistake that I believe you made as well.

You should have polled the cast at the time the situation occurred. However, having said that it sounds like you would not have had enough support to overturn the judge. So yes (if in fact) the judge did state he felt his dog was a little left handed from yours, he may have very well played a little ignorant in an effort to protect his overall position for the weekend.

Now here is my recommendation for improving the scoring in this situation.

I would advocate for UKC to change their position on the use of a garmin. I would love to see the judge of every cast be required to use a garmin. Every dog in the cast could be loaded into the handheld. The judge could use the handheld (in full view of all handlers) to determine potential split trees in that situation. That would eliminate 90% of the issues that come up about where dog/dogs are actually treed.

We have a great tool that we coonhunters use every night when pleasure hunting to see who's dog is treed where. Its a shame we cannot utilize this tool when it really counts.

I know this will be an off the wall solution to many of you on this board, but I took a similar hit in the zone that cost me advancing to the finals, and the use of a garmin would have told the truth (in my situation) as to which dog covered who?

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Registered: Aug 2006
Location: Latta, SC
Posts: 1021

VIRGIL THE JUDGES DOG WAS NOT AT THIS TREE AND HE WAS NOT TREEING ANYWHERE ELSE AT THIS POINT.The judge took 75- at this point.I would never expect someone to declare dogs on a split tree unless they were sure they were splti.especially 400/500 yrd deep .I only made my point when the judge with his own mouth stated that his dog was a lil more to the left and I said I agree,I didnot ever ask if his was or wasnot with mine until after the fact that with his own mouth he put him a lil more to the left and also marked him a little more to the left with his light also ...the other 2 hunters just said we could not make him declare a split tree....I said I wasn,t making him split but he just admitted his dog was to the left......I,m not trying to run anyone down on here,I,m just asking if an opinion

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Registered: Sep 2007
Location: Kentucky
Posts: 2713

quote:

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Originally posted by James B Grice
VIRGIL THE JUDGES DOG WAS NOT AT THIS TREE AND HE WAS NOT TREEING ANYWHERE ELSE AT THIS POINT.The judge took 75- at this point.I would never expect someone to declare dogs on a split tree unless they were sure they were splti.especially 400/500 yrd deep .I only made my point when the judge with his own mouth stated that his dog was a lil more to the left and I said I agree,I didnot ever ask if his was or wasnot with mine until after the fact that with his own mouth he put him a lil more to the left and also marked him a little more to the left with his light also ...the other 2 hunters just said we could not make him declare a split tree....I said I wasn,t making him split but he just admitted his dog was to the left......I,m not trying to run anyone down on here,I,m just asking if an opinion

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Golden Woods Bo
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Sounds to me like you was being a bit of a pain. From your post you was telling the judge what was going to happen here. You may have been right or wrong can't tell ya, but if you start treating things with a little honey first things might go a little better. Sounds too me like you pourd vinigar all over it when you said "I stated to him that if his dog was not at my tree when we arrived he was gonna take 125" He was judging the cast and if you don't agree with a situtation or his judgement you should ask for vote and role on with what the out come is.

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Registered: Mar 2008
Location: Western N.Y.
Posts: 4005

If the judge had put his dog on the card as split he would have had to tell the cast he was doing it and start a second 5 on his dog. takes a pretty poor handler to do that. Sounds to me like you were trying to run the cast and the judge didnt let ya.

At 400 yards if those dogs did end up togeather while you were walking how would you determin which one moved?

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Location: SUGARCREEK OHIO
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DONT EVER CALL YOUR DOG SPLIT.........UNLESS ITS OBVIOUSE...CALL YOUR DOG IF THEY R SPLIT ...WHEN YOU GET TO THE TREE ......THEN ALL IS WELL...IF A HANDLER ASKS ME IS YOUR DOG SPLIT ...I TELL HIM WE WILL SEE WHEN WE GET THERE....UNLESS I KNOW HES SPLIT I WILL CALL HIM SPLIT .....

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I think a very simple answer to this can be found in the advisor. weather or not a dog goes on the card as split is a decision that is made by the judge, not the handler and if a judge is going to put a dog on the card as split he is supposed to inform the cast of that decision.

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Registered: Mar 2005
Location: Owosso MI
Posts: 747

quote:

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Originally posted by Andy Miller
DONT EVER CALL YOUR DOG SPLIT.........UNLESS ITS OBVIOUSE...CALL YOUR DOG IF THEY R SPLIT ...WHEN YOU GET TO THE TREE ......THEN ALL IS WELL...IF A HANDLER ASKS ME IS YOUR DOG SPLIT ...I TELL HIM WE WILL SEE WHEN WE GET THERE....UNLESS I KNOW HES SPLIT I WILL CALL HIM SPLIT .....

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Registered: Dec 2004
Location: waco, tx
Posts: 646

Never call your dog split unless they are obvious. As far as the 2 mins goes he does need to put the 2 on his dog if his dog is not at tree but barking else where. On the other hand if his dog was treed on your tree he takes his minus and no 2 min rule applies. That tree scored. As soon as his dog opens again send in your dog to get some more points.

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Registered: Jul 2006
Location: Shreveport/Bossier City, La
Posts: 274

I will never call my dog split until I get close enough to tell but if he said that his dog was treed and left handed then he said the dog was split. It is called integrity and that is all well can really be judged on in this sport. I have seen a score card get thrown out due to an argument over this. Judge should have kept his mouth shut.

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and I stated to him that if his dog was not at my tree when we arrived he was gonna take 125,good or bad,



That statement right there set the whole tone for this situation. Anytime a handler starts telling the judge what is gonna happen before the situation is even completed, you are gonna have a problem. There is a right way and a wrong way to question a situation and Mr Grice did it the wrong way. In fact, he didn't even question it, he just decided he was running the show. The judge handled it the way the rule book states it should be handled.

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Mr. Grice....Just by reading your post i can see were the judge felt he was being intimidated. And yes he could of scratched you for such. Then we go a whole different direction. Back to the club before the master of hounds. If you brought the attitude back you portray in your post. I have no doubt the MOH would uphold the scratch. you woild then be reported to UKC. They could possibly bar you. If that would have happened you would be sitting somewere else whining to your buddies why did i get barred. why do i not have dogs registered with UKC. Why Why Why....Your lucky your on here going why why why..id learn to call my dog. if you dont agree with a call simply question it.put a question on card. finish the hunt. go back to Moh and let them figure it out. Cast will go a whole lot smoother for you.

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Being a former moh , I don't see where there was a " SEPARATE " time being used on a split tree . That right there would be your answer .

Last edited by Charles Pullen on 09-26-2012 at 04:12 PM

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Registered: Aug 2006
Location: Latta, SC
Posts: 1021

I respect everyones opinionon on this question.From my witnees of the dogs location as they barked and were declared treed the 2 dogs in question were a good ways apart,they were in reality less than 400 yrds from us but were seperated atleas over 100 yrds, but it was clear that his dog and my dog was not together when he treed his dog,the other 2 cast mambers may not have paid attention but I did.My point is I knew the judges dog was not treed with mine,I also know the dog was still trailing to the left thats why I ask the judge politely would he mark the 2 dogs with his light and a few min later he stated with his own mouth his dog was to the left a little.I made a statement to the judge that he cant have it both ways,.I felt he needed to either put his tree points at 75- at that time or he needed to put him down at 125....MY GOD FOLKS ...THE JUDGE HIMSELF BY HIS OWN ACTIONS TWICE DECLARED HIS DOG TO THE LEFT...IF THIS HAD BEEN A TRUCK HUNT IT WOULD HAVE BEEN DEALT WITH RIGHT THERE,If he had just took his minus I would not have had to step up...Most folks in my part of the country will be more than glad to minus you...I CANT FOR THE LIFE OF ME SEE HOW ONLY A FEW DONT HINK HE SHOUD HAVE BEEN MINUSED IMMEDIATELY...I am not a habdler,sure not a slick one,but I wasnot about to let us walk into a tree and just let the judges dog have time to get there when he and I both agreed he was never there, There was never a time put on a second tree until I ask for one as we arrived at my tree and the judges dog was not there...JUST A QUESTION PLEASE REPLY

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