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CSnowgren
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Apr 2009
Location: Iowa
Posts: 928

Ever seen a breeding like this?

Have you ever seen breedings posted on here that you can't help but feel sorry for how excited the owner is? Like, "Wow! That is a breeding bred to be slick treein' fools!"

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11-28-2011 12:59 AM

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Jack Bingham
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Registered: Aug 2006
Location: Montour IOWA
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Yep but you don't want to bust there bubble. Or when you see the (outstanding cross) and neither parent has been put in a hunt.

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11-28-2011 02:16 AM

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RED REBELS
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Registered: Oct 2007
Location: Medford, WI
Posts: 3312

quote:
Originally posted by Jack Bingham
Yep but you don't want to bust there bubble. Or when you see the (outstanding cross) and neither parent has been put in a hunt.

seems to be more in certain breeds than others lol if ya get my drift!

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11-28-2011 02:18 AM

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Matt McKinney
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Jan 2010
Location: Greene County Ohio
Posts: 1264

Papers dont tree coons. The mother and father of my dog have never.been.in a hunt but I guarantee will tree coon other dogs cant even smell.and my dog ain't too bad herself probably about 90 percent accurate. Papers and titles are over rated in my opinion.I have hunted with grand.nite.champs that I wouldn't.follow.if you.paid.me.

quote:
Originally posted by Jack Bingham
Yep but you don't want to bust there bubble. Or when you see the (outstanding cross) and neither parent has been put in a hunt.

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11-28-2011 02:36 AM

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breezyoaks
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Mar 2009
Location: wisconsin
Posts: 880

Papers -N- degrees

quote:
Originally posted by Matt McKinney
Papers dont tree coons. The mother and father of my dog have never.been.in a hunt but I guarantee will tree coon other dogs cant even smell.and my dog ain't too bad herself probably about 90 percent accurate. Papers and titles are over rated in my opinion.I have hunted with grand.nite.champs that I wouldn't.follow.if you.paid.me.

Thats a big 10-4 Matt..........
I had a supposed Gr. Nite female here for hide season a couple years back that couldnt run a coon outta a 2 acre corn field, but she would tree every squirrel nest in the timber....... a fella bought her for breeding and sellin a few "quality "pups according to the "papers".......no she wasnt mine.....just here on her way to her new owner.

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11-28-2011 03:12 AM

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ThunderRock
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Registered: Dec 2005
Location: Ashtabula County, Ohio
Posts: 2494

So tell me this, you take the Best Bred litter there ever was in your opinion..... Im sure there either all grand pedigrees or grand night champion parents......now take away the titles, are these dogs worthless then? They were the the best in your mined with the degrees, even though they hunt the same, but dont have any titles? makes yah wonder. My hounds hunts great in my eyes.... so ur telling me a Nitch titel on my dog will make him hunt better?

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11-28-2011 03:34 AM

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GLANCY'S 7 MILE
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Feb 2010
Location: Willard, Kentucky
Posts: 1211

quote:
Originally posted by Jack Bingham
neither parent has been put in a hunt.

I look at ability/performance not title's! Just cause a piece of paper says a dog is a GRNITECH, or NITECH, in no way shape or form does it make it a COON DOG!

If a pedigree or a win slip makes a dog, I guess I need to throw away my light and get a pair of glasses....LOL

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11-28-2011 03:46 AM

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Jack Bingham
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Aug 2006
Location: Montour IOWA
Posts: 1725

quote:
Originally posted by KyKoonHunter32
I look at ability/performance not title's! Just cause a piece of paper says a dog is a GRNITECH, or NITECH, in no way shape or form does it make it a COON DOG!

If a pedigree or a win slip makes a dog, I guess I need to throw away my light and get a pair of glasses....LOL

I agree titles don't mean anything to me also it's how the dogs perform. What i meant was that one or both of the parents don't hunt meaning they have never been to the woods. They just think that by the pedigree it's an outstanding cross.

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11-28-2011 04:42 AM

JiM
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Sep 2010
Location: New Paris, Indiana
Posts: 7076

quote:
Originally posted by Matt McKinney
Papers dont tree coons. The mother and father of my dog have never.been.in a hunt but I guarantee will tree coon other dogs cant even smell.and my dog ain't too bad herself probably about 90 percent accurate. Papers and titles are over rated in my opinion.I have hunted with grand.nite.champs that I wouldn't.follow.if you.paid.me.

Wow!!! What a revelation, papers don't tree coons. How long did it take to figure that one out?
Registration papers are nothing more than a means of record keeping. Anyone who doesn't think it is helpfull in breeding to know a dogs history ain't too sharp. But if you can keep track of dogs histories without a pedigree, fine.

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11-28-2011 02:19 PM

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plentyofpossum
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Registered: Jan 2011
Location:
Posts: 386

quote:
Originally posted by Matt McKinney
Papers and titles are over rated in my opinion.

No, papers and titles are a cancer to the sport. Papers and titles are the reason we have so many well started dogs for sale on this site. They bred paper to paper, not brains.

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11-28-2011 02:34 PM

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Matt McKinney
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Registered: Jan 2010
Location: Greene County Ohio
Posts: 1264

quote:
Originally posted by JiM
Wow!!! What a revelation, papers don't tree coons. How long did it take to figure that one out?
Registration papers are nothing more than a means of record keeping. Anyone who doesn't think it is helpfull in breeding to know a dogs history ain't too sharp. But if you can keep track of dogs histories without a pedigree, fine.

Did i say anywhere in my post that papers arent helpfull? I was responding to the post that was making fun of people that post peds where the mother or father arent grandnite champs or have any titles. I said I know what the mother and father of my dogs will do,I also know they come from a long line of coondogs, not tree dogs that bark up empty trees so I do know their history. From your response, it dont sound like you read my post, or maybe your not intelligent enough to understand what it meant.

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11-28-2011 02:43 PM

Matt McKinney
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Jan 2010
Location: Greene County Ohio
Posts: 1264

quote:
Originally posted by plentyofpossum
No, papers and titles are a cancer to the sport. Papers and titles are the reason we have so many well started dogs for sale on this site. They bred paper to paper, not brains.

EXACTLY..People pick the cooner up see a pretty picture, a nice pedigree, and the same ole BS..Ole Boomer is a first strike, first tree, get deep with the meat everytime tree dog, can drive a cold track and do it right all with a million dollar mouth. 500.00 stud fee, and people breed to it based on the add, and the hype on the add. Like i said, I will take my non titled female over any grandnite champ comp hunt dog anyday. Dont get me wrong, there are some outstanding dogs that are titled and are up for stud, but I wouldnt breed cause of the titles,or because of what the owner says about the dog. I would breed cause they have rings over their head when they tree. Titles are a way to make the owner of the dog feel proud of what they got. What makes me feel proud is to carry a boat load of coons out of the woods. I dont need Grandnite champ in front of my dogs name to make me feel like i have a coon dog. I would put her against any grand nite champ any time.

Last edited by Matt McKinney on 11-28-2011 at 02:51 PM

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11-28-2011 02:48 PM

JiM
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Registered: Sep 2010
Location: New Paris, Indiana
Posts: 7076

Matt, I did read your post and as stupid as I am, I still figured out that you have a dog off no-title dogs for which you are very familiar with it's history, which was the reason for my last sentence in that post. If you know the history without papers, then you don't need papers.
But if you look at pups outside your own neighborhood, you prolly won't know that history without papers.

As for possums comment that papers and titles are a cancer, well that is just basic crap. I started coonhunting in 1962 and nobody I knew owned a registered dog or God forbid, a TITLED dog and believe me, there was just as much worthless dog flesh out there then as now, actually more in my opinion. Ask anyone who really was hunting coons back then. There was also the exact same level of jealousy back then between the meat hunters and those who pursued the hunt titles.

Last edited by JiM on 11-28-2011 at 03:54 PM

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11-28-2011 03:52 PM

JiM
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Sep 2010
Location: New Paris, Indiana
Posts: 7076

quote:
Originally posted by Matt McKinney
I would put her against any grand nite champ any time.

Really? Including the time when there is a judge, a clock and a scorecard?

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11-28-2011 03:58 PM

Matt McKinney
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Jan 2010
Location: Greene County Ohio
Posts: 1264

quote:
Originally posted by JiM
Matt, I did read your post and as stupid as I am, I still figured out that you have a dog off no-title dogs for which you are very familiar with it's history, which was the reason for my last sentence in that post. If you know the history without papers, then you don't need papers.
But if you look at pups outside your own neighborhood, you prolly won't know that history without papers.

As for possums comment that papers and titles are a cancer, well that is just basic crap. I started coonhunting in 1962 and nobody I knew owned a registered dog or God forbid, a TITLED dog and believe me, there was just as much worthless dog flesh out there then as now, actually more in my opinion. Ask anyone who really was hunting coons back then. There was also the exact same level of jealousy back then between the meat hunters and those who pursued the hunt titles.

Once again I have papers.lol..I aint gonna buy a grade dog..Im just saying I dont get excited about titles either way. If they have titles fine, if not, that aint gonna stop me from getting a pup or off of a dog if I like the way its bred and I know the dogs faults, and strengths. One of my females is off a not so well known grandnite champ dog and an unregistered mother, one of my males is off the same female, and a non titled heavy heavy old school finley river blood male in missouri.THAT TREES COONS NOT TREES. And yes I would put my dog in hunts. Like I said, I have nothing to hide when it comes to my dog. A judge, and time clock dont scare me.I would put money on trees with my female, and the mother of my female.She has a coon you give me money, she dont, i give you money. I hunt with one of the biggest comp hunters around, who has walked behind tons of good dogs, and has probably won over 100k with his dogs.That being said, they are dogs, just because they have titles dont mean they cant be beat by a registered dog with no titles.Also the man that has these big comp hounds, has offered me a nice chunk of change for my non titled female. Titles dont make coonhounds. Again titles are just something for a guy to brag up his dog, and say look at this..This dog is a grandnite, so it MUST be good. You have your opinion and I have mine, isnt america great.

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11-28-2011 05:09 PM

Matt McKinney
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Jan 2010
Location: Greene County Ohio
Posts: 1264

quote:
Originally posted by JiM
Matt, I did read your post and as stupid as I am, I still figured out that you have a dog off no-title dogs for which you are very familiar with it's history, which was the reason for my last sentence in that post. If you know the history without papers, then you don't need papers.
But if you look at pups outside your own neighborhood, you prolly won't know that history without papers.

As for possums comment that papers and titles are a cancer, well that is just basic crap. I started coonhunting in 1962 and nobody I knew owned a registered dog or God forbid, a TITLED dog and believe me, there was just as much worthless dog flesh out there then as now, actually more in my opinion. Ask anyone who really was hunting coons back then. There was also the exact same level of jealousy back then between the meat hunters and those who pursued the hunt titles.

I hunt with men that are up in their 70's and have hunted all their life. Most of them tell me the dogs nowadays are tree happy dogs that cant really drive a track like the dogs of way back.John Wick says the samething.Too much tree, not enough track.. I dont want a dog that is just gonna go in and tree to be treeing, no matter how big of a mouth he has. I want a drift type track dog that is gonna take the tracks how they come, hot or cold, and when the track is finished,and they tree, they better have a coon over their head.And as far as the jealousy comment, I am happy to get to hunt when i can, I have a full time job, a wife, and a 2 babies..I have to set priorities, and driving across the country to a bunch of hunts doesnt fit into my life right now. Maybe someday, but not now. There is nothing wrong with hunts at all, dont get me wrong one of my best buddies is big into it..I just dont pick and choose my dogs by the amount of titles in a dogs pedigree. You obviously do, because I can tell your getting bent out of shape..But the offer still stands, you bring your best hound to my place, and we will hunt.

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11-28-2011 05:21 PM

Mike Hill
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Registered: Aug 2009
Location: Hoyt Kansas
Posts: 426

I been around over 30 years

I think dogs are less trashy and can drive a track just as good as 30years ago.and it doesnt really matter to me what someone has breed or got or is going to get i am not feeding it.Also I made my dog a grand nite because I enjoyed doing it.I breed one female to him i bought, one pup is treeing coon at 7 months not trashy so I am happy

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11-28-2011 05:33 PM

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plentyofpossum
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Registered: Jan 2011
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Jim I don't agree but that's fine. There's nothing wrong with keeping up with where your dog come from. I just have a problem with the titles, I included papers in the comment simply because as of right now they go hand in hand. And with those titles come bad breeding, lying, cheating, and most of all bad pups.

To op I would say if he breeds his own- Russ Bellar. He is a consistent winner. If he doesn't breed his own, then where ever he gets his from.

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11-28-2011 05:35 PM

Jason Baldwin
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Registered: Jan 2011
Location: Rockmart, Ga.
Posts: 2652

You guys have just broke both the message board's main rules in one thread.

rule # 1 - dont ever question the legitamacy of a title

rule # 2 - never argue with Jim or directly back talk.

All yall need to do now is bring up a negative comment about a feeder bucket dog and you will have done all the 3 major sins in one fell swoop !

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11-28-2011 07:51 PM

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Matt McKinney
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Registered: Jan 2010
Location: Greene County Ohio
Posts: 1264

quote:
Originally posted by Jason Baldwin
You guys have just broke both the message board's main rules in one thread.

rule # 1 - dont ever question the legitamacy of a title

rule # 2 - never argue with Jim or directly back talk.

All yall need to do now is bring up a negative comment about a feeder bucket dog and you will have done all the 3 major sins in one fell swoop !

LOL..Im not saying titles are'nt legit, just saying its not my deciding factor,and I wont make fun of a fella for not having titled dogs..I wont touch on the feeder bucket hunts..lol..Heck I thought I was being hospitable. I invited Jim down. lol..All he needs is his coat, hat, boots, and a dog or dogs.

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11-28-2011 08:06 PM

OH English
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Jun 2010
Location: SE Ohio
Posts: 178

Oh dear lord, don't mention feeder buckets or this thread will be deleted!! Lol don't mention the other KC that starts with a P either or you will be banned!! But getting on topic, did you know World Champion Big D's mother, Ricketts's Sassy Sage was a house dog that never proved herself in the woods? With that being said, all my dogs are out of parents that are both Grand Nite's. Does this say anything about there reproducing capability? No, but it makes me feel better about the pup becoming something lol. Remember, just because a dog can tree a coon doesn't mean it can reproduce. Just think, the first time a female runs and trees her own coon is there something inside her body that says "oh man I just treed a coon, I'm gonna be able to reproduce dogs that can do the same"? I think not.

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11-28-2011 08:15 PM

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Matt McKinney
UKC Forum Member

Registered: Jan 2010
Location: Greene County Ohio
Posts: 1264

Its all a gamble no matter what..If some one had the right formula there wouldnt be so many well started dogs for sale..lol

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11-28-2011 08:28 PM

Rough Northern
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Registered: Jul 2009
Location:
Posts: 330

quote:
Originally posted by OH English
Remember, just because a dog can tree a coon doesn't mean it can reproduce.

So True.

Lots of pleasure hunters and hide hunters own dogs that can tree a coon but could never earn a nite hunt degree. Thus, to them the titles dont mean anything.

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11-28-2011 09:48 PM

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jason2579
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Registered: Oct 2006
Location: Iowa
Posts: 1014

I too don't believe titles make a dog but as sad as it is try to sell a litter nowadays without titled parents or try to get someone to breed to your dog without a title. You could take some people out with every pup out your male or female and everyone of them could be coon treeing machines and do it the right way and they will sit there and tell how nice they are then turn around and say But he's not titled she's not titled so i don't think i'll take one or breed to him or her. That's just the facts of it titles move dogs alot dogs get over looked cause of it. Alot dogs with just a NT Champion title get over looked caused their not Grand. You could be as honest about your dog as the day is long and even take them hunting with offspring and show what he is reproducing and still won't make difference cause as of right now titles sell pups and titles get your hound bred to. As sad as it is if you what keep a good thing going in your own breeding program you may have to go find that special male or female to buy for yourself and breed for yourself. JMO

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11-28-2011 10:09 PM

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ov_blues
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I own two males out of the same cross.

One is a Dual Grand HTX2, that we bought as a Gr Nt and finished to Gr Show and HTX2.

The other male has a first place and is HTX. I never finished him, not because he didn't have the ability, but because I just really don't like to competition hunt that much.

Both nice dogs in their own right, but which one do you think gets bred to? I'm sure that when I breed to the PR dog, some people wonder what is wrong with the Dual Grand that I didn't breed that female to him and chose the PR dog over him. Then when it comes time to sell the extra pups, it is much harder to move the pups out of the PR dogs. However, if I am matching things up correctly, there are times that the PR dog is going to be a better choice to breed to.

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11-28-2011 10:34 PM