Registered: Dec 2003
Location: Sarepta, LA
Posts: 3

Why aren't hounds being inbreed or linebreed like other breeds? I'm not a breeder, but trying to learn. I have been reading everything I can get my hands on and all "that I have read" talks about inbreeding and linebreeding. There are some hounds that have a little linebreeding, but not much. It seems like if hounds are inbreed at all people look down on it. People seem to think pups will be deformed and dum if inbreed. From what I have read u get as good or better dogs from inbreeding or linebreeding than outcrossing. I have noticed that a lot of the Wipe Out dogs are linebreed and a lot of people like them. Like I said I'm just getting into this so I don't know much but trying to learn. And I will be doing some testing of my own.

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Registered: Feb 2008
Location:
Posts: 567

do not like to inbreed but line breed is the best in my ways around the third generation,

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Registered: Jun 2003
Location: Sylva, North Carolina (the far Western Tip of the State)
Posts: 10272

OUR DOGS ARE LINE BRED ON SACKETT JR. BUT NOW ADAYS ITS GETTING HARDER AND HARDER TO GET SACKETT JR BLOOD UP CLOSE TO LINE BREED ON. BEST YOU CAN GET RIGHT NOW IS IF YOU HAVE A MALE AND FEMALE DIRECT OFF HIM TO CROSS THEM. THEN YOU STILL ONLY HAVE DOUBLE GRANDPUPS TO HIM.

OUR SID DOG IS DOUBLE SACKETT JR, HE'S GRANDSON ON TOP AND GREAT GRANDSON ON THE BOTTOM.

HIS SON, SID JR IS QUADRUPLE SACKETT JR IN 4 GENERATIONS. WE OWN BOTH SID AND SKEETER, JR'S SIRE AND DAM.

--------------------GRNTCH'PR'ROCK RIVER SACKETT
---------------CH GRNTCH’PR’ROCK RIVER SACKETT JR
--------------------GRNTCH'PR'SKEAN'S DOLLY
----------NTCH GRCH’PR’TAR HEEL NITRO
--------------------GRNTCH'PR'YADKIN TAR RATTLER
---------------NTCH’PR’MAPLE RIDGE RUDY
--------------------GRCH'PR'PEARSON'S MISS LIPPER
-----GRCH NTCH’PR’RB’s Rock River Sid-PUPS=72 1 GRNTCH/3 NTCH/1 GRCH/2 CH
--------------------CH GRNTCH'PR'ROCK RIVER SACKETT JR
---------------GRCH GRNTCH’PR’ROCK RIVER FRANK
--------------------'PR'ROCK RIVER SAL
----------CH GRNTCH’PR’ROANOKE RIVER RACHEL
--------------------NTCH'PR'PRICE'S PINE CREEK KC
---------------NTCH GRCH’PR’LINKOUS WHITE PINE RIDGE BELLE
--------------------GRCH'PR'PRICE'S PINE CREEK MISTY
CH NTCH'PR'CLINCH MTN SID JR
--------------------CH GRNTCH'PR'ROCK RIVER SACKETT JR
---------------CH GRNTCH’PR’HAMMERING EARL
--------------------GRNTCH'PR'FUGATE'S BEATRICE
----------CH GRNTCH’PR’HI-TECH HAMMERING HANK
--------------------GRNTCH'PR'HOMER'S GOMER
---------------CH GRNTCH’PR’GOMER’S LITTLE ANGEL
--------------------GRNTCH'PR'HARDWOOD DEEPWATER SUE
-----GRCH’PR’SACKETT 2 EM SKEETER=2NTCH/1GRCH/2CH
--------------------GRCH GRNTCH'PR'STONE MOUNTAIN STEEL
---------------GRNTCH GRCH’PR’WALTZ ROADBLOCK
--------------------GRNTCH'PR'WALTZ NITE TRAIN
----------GRNTCH’PR’SADDLE CREEK ROAD RAGE
--------------------CH GRNTCH'PR'ROCK RIVER SACKETT JR
---------------GRCH GRNTCH’PR’NITE HEAT TRIXIE-SISTER TO RAT & ABBY
--------------------GRNTCH'PR'NIGHT HEAT DIXIE

THEN WE OWN A GRNTCH GRANDSON TO SACKETT JR WHO'S DAM WAS A LITTERMATE TO SID'S MAMA.

THEN WE ALSO OWN A REGISTERED FEMALE WHO IS OFF OF ROCK RIVER FISHE. FISHE WAS A LITTERMATE TO SILVER CREEK SETH. SETH WAS DIRECT OFF GRCH GRNTCH'PR'ROCK RIVER FRANK AND NTCH'PR'MAPLE RIDGE RUDY. RUDY AS YOU WILL NOTICE IS SID'S GRANDMOTHER ON HIS SIRE'S SIDE AND FRANK IS IS GRANDFATHER ON HIS DAM'S SIDE. WE WILL BE BREEDING THIS FEMALE ARTIFICIALLY TO OUR GRNTCH'PR'STAMEY'S CAROLINA SACKETT DOG WHILE HE CAN STILL PRODUCE PUPS. THEN WHEN HE'S GONE WE'LL BREED HER TO SID. WE WILL KEEP THE FEMALE OFF CLAUDE AND MINIE TO CROSS ON SID IF THEY TURN OUT.

OUR BUDDY HAS A FEMALE DIRECT OFF ROCK RIVER GAP, WHO IS A GRANDSON TO SACKETT JR, AND HER MOTHER IS OFF HAMMERING EARL WHO IS DIRECT OFF SACKETT JR. SHE WILL BE BRED TO SID AS WELL.

WE HAVE LINEBRED SACKETT JR BLOOD FOR YEARS, AND REALLY LIKE THE RESULTS.

IF WE DIDNT, WE WOULDNT BE TRYING SO HARD TO KEEP THAT BLOOD ALIVE.

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Registered: Jun 2003
Location: Central Michigan
Posts: 6544

Inbreeding/line breeding have from time to time been used by various coon hound breeders such as Dave Dean and his Hammer bred blueticks.

I truly believe one of the reasons this tool for breeding isn't used much in the coon hound world is we all hear the dangers about it and then we hear the benefits. We make a cross based on pedigree more than actual selection. We don't end up with good results so then we conclude this tool for breeding does not work.

Fact is no matter what tool we use for breeding we still need to use good selection.

One of the biggest mistakes I see breeders do is breed for a pedigree more than considering the individual dogs (first), the dogs siblings (second), then the dogs parents, and then even the aunts and uncles if possible.

Look through the ages at successful coon hound breeders, big game hound breeders, and even some of the lap dogs out there, and you will see that all were good at selection.

Inbreeding, line-breeding, out-crossing, and even cross breeding has plusses and minuses associated with each, but none of those will meet its potential without good selection.

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Larry Atherton

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Registered: Jun 2003
Location: Sylva, North Carolina (the far Western Tip of the State)
Posts: 10272

YOU ARE RIGHT LARRY. THAT IS EXACTLY WHY WE ARE GOING TO BREED THE MINNIE FEMALE TO CLAUDE. BECAUSE SHE'S GOT ALL THE TREE POWER SHE NEEDS, AND SHE'S GOT AHECK OF A WIND NOSE. BUT SHE NEEDS A LITTLE MORE TRACK. AND THAT IS WHERE CLAUDE COMES IN BECAUSE HE'S AN EXCELLENT TRACK DOG. THAT I BELIEVE CAME FROM THE CHICO X YADKIN RIVER BLOOD IN HIM.

NOW, IF WE WERE JUST BREEDING ON PEDIGREE ALONE, WE'D BREED HER TO SID AND BE DONE WITH IT.

BUT WE HAVE HUNTED ALL 3 ENOUGH TO KNOW AS FAR AS HUNTING TRAITS GO, AND WHO WILL COMPLIMENT WAHT THE BETTER BALANCED CROSS WOULD BE BETWEEN CLAUDE AND MINNIE. AND OF COURSE, WE'LL KEEP SOME PUPS OFF THAT CROSS TO POSSIBLY CROSS ON LATER.

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GO TEAM SID!!!

*GRCH NTCH'PR'RB'S Rock River Sid-R.I.P.

*CH'PR'Jet's Tember Shakin Sadie (UKC 2ND)
*Banjo

Independent Consultant for Jamberry Nails!! Check them out!!

Quincy-828-269-8768
OR Christy-828-269-4678---If we dont answer, please leave a message!!!

EVERYTHING happens for a reason.

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Registered: Jan 2006
Location: bronaugh,MO
Posts: 2595

I agree with Larry A.


I will in a few days make the closest cross Ive personaly ever made. The dogs are full brother/sister, however from different litters.

The cross there both from is batting a 1000 for dogs that can go out and put hides in the freezer regardless of the condishions or where you cut them. There are 24 dogs in the cross and everyone that lived to see there first birthday is like that. I think there are 21 out of 24 living.


These 2 are the perfect match for styles. Both are very nice hounds, however the small details where one is lacking is where the other is strongest.


I have a feeling it will be one of the best crosses I will ever make, but realy wont know for sure intill they show what there made of on there own.

I may look back and wish I hadnt made the cross, but I will never look back and wish I had.

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Registered: Mar 2005
Location: Thomaston,GA
Posts: 3698

quote:

---

Originally posted by larrypoe

I may look back and wish I hadnt made the cross, but I will never look back and wish I had.

---

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Registered: Oct 2005
Location: Vernon, Alabama
Posts: 2382

Im sure it works well when used correctly. I have been thinking about it alot lately(which is dangerous and unusual for me). I was thinking about all the dogs i have hunted with that i would call good to great. And the vast majority of them were not linebred, or at least not in 4 generations. I am close to alot of people who practice linebreeding, and really havent noticed any better dogs or any more consistent dogs being produced from these crosses than come from outcrossing. I realize i am looking at a small sample and to get the best examples the linebreeding would probably need to be followed closely for the next 5 to 10 years.

I guess my post is coming off as negative toward the practice.This is not my intention, as i am just trying to form some kind of educated opinion on the subject. I just hear people talk about the benefits of it, but have not seen enough results/proof to back it up.

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Registered: Apr 2008
Location: NW, FL
Posts: 32

to breed dogs for the sake of pedigree is a flawed practice.
This is my opinion so don't throw rocks at me. I am not saying that it is so, It is my opinion.

the problem with coonhounds is there are not allot of dogs that I would say are worthy of being linebred.
the dogs are good but allot have flaws that I personally would not want to accentuate by linebreeding. You are allot safer outcrossing with these dogs than linebreeding
If you linebreed, you are not only boosting the percentages of reproducing the good qualities, you are also boosting the percentages of reproducing the bad qualities. In my experience it is the bad qualities that seem to be reproduced more than the good ones. i have linebred foxhounds for years with great success. Halfmates make a great cross. When you start dabling in linebreeding you need dogs that have little or no flaws and I just do not see allot of coonhounds that would fit this description.
If you have dogs that are perfect examples of what their breed should look and perform like, then by all means I would start linebreeding them. If you do not, I certainly would not atempt it.

My knowledge of coonhound breeding is limited but I have bred and raise over 35 litters of foxhound pups. My intentions are not to offend anyone but with more selective breeding we could improve our bloodlines alot.

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Registered: Dec 2003
Location: Sarepta, LA
Posts: 3

I'm seeing alot of people breeding for ped's only, not saying you dont get great dogs from that but I also hear about all the slick treeing and other undesirable traits. I fill that if proper selection was made and more culling we would not have this. Alot of people say breed the best to the best. From what I have read if both dogs dont have the same traits they will not produce same type dogs. People think that if this dog trees realy well then breed to something that tracks realy well and you get a balanced hound. The parents only give 50% of there genes to there offspring so how can this happen. I know there are alot of people that will continue with breeding like this and Im not going to tell them others wise, but I belive if people want better dogs they need to think and study more before breeding and buying dogs. There needs to be a data base on dogs being breed that show more than color and titles it needs to show every characteristic about every dog in ped. Im sure that will never happen but something to think about.

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Registered: Jun 2003
Location: Central Michigan
Posts: 6544

Mr. Cooney,

Here is the thing. If we bring out the bad, then we eliminate it. If there is bad genes and we keep outcrossing we are not eliminating the bad genes; we are just hiding them for a little while. If a breeder takes on the responsibility to inbreed or linebreed that breeder should also be resonsible to do what needs being done.

Breeding methods

inbreeding:
plus=increase consistency
negative=increase the consistency of recessive genes

line-breeding:
the same plus and negative as inbreeding with lesser chance of getting harmful recessive genes; note it doesn't eliminate the negative.

outcrossing:
plus=better performing offspring
negative=less uniformity in future progeny

cross-breeding
plus=potential for increase hybrid vigor
negative=even less uniformity in future progeny

If we pick one method to achieve our goals, we will likely fail. First we should decide what our goals are. Then we need to decide what method is the best to achieve those goals. One method may work for a while, but then we may need to change our methods to continue to meet our goals, or our goals may change. The methods we choose to breed our dogs are nothing more than tools. Once we make a particular method more important than it is we are again likely to fail. These are tools. We can use tools correctly, or we can use then incorrectly. No tool is ever right for every job.

If it was easy, it wouldn't be so rewarding when we succeed.

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Larry Atherton

Aim small miss small

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Registered: Apr 2008
Location: NW, FL
Posts: 32

most people breeding will not stay the course to acheive the result you are speeking about. there are other ways to get rid of the bad qualities in hound breeding. If we do not breed these dogs then as they die it eliminates the need to try and breed these bad qualities out of bloodlines. It takes alot of breeding to breed out bad qualities. the thing to do is eliminate the dog from the equation and only breed dogs that are worthy. I am not talking of little problems dogs have. I am saying that there are folks out there who breed dogs with serious faults and it takes alot of breeding to breed these traits out of dogs. the pups are raised and distributed out and the cycle of bad genetics continues. No one method of breeding is the only answer. It takes all to produce a good quality dog. if you are not willing to do what it takes to line breed and inbreed dogs then the safe thing is to stay with ourcrosses.

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Registered: May 2010
Location: hendersonville, nc
Posts: 26

i've got a walker going on 8 months that was accidentally inbred through full litter mates. he's got tar heel nitro 4 generations in front of him so i decided to take the dog. the guy was giving him away and if they weren't gone in a week he was taking them to the pound. so far he has turned out very smart and from what i can tell he's gonna make a good tree dog. only thing i've been worried about with any deformaties is his nails turn inward. i was afraid if they kept growin they'de hit each other and cause him pain but so far they haven't. i looked at his mom's and they were the exact same way.
if he turns out a good dog i'm gonna outbreed him most likely. i don't know much about breeding but if anyone thinks this would be a bad idea please let me know.
i read on ukc's website that an inbred dog will show more traits from its grandparents than its own parents. i figured this might bring him closer to nitro. i hope this works as planned lol.

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Registered: Aug 2008
Location: Ky.
Posts: 407

way i look at it .. its all inbreeding....any shape or forum...alot of people will disagree but it is... not saying its bad....alot of nice hounds are an outcome of this if you do it with senceable...most of the defects an bringing out things in a line you dont want would be more then likely full bro/sis cause thats close ass you can get to each other...bro/sis is more kin then son to mother or daughter to father.....i like how some people double or tripple up on a certin dog....thats way you will more then lickly have certin traits thats more common.... then guessing with crossing to this an that ...

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Registered: Jun 2008
Location: willard,ohio
Posts: 255

Ive got a 9 month old black female that is out of a half brother, half sister cross. Easiest starting pup Ive had. Natural treedog. Hunt her by herself. Just needs more experience when the conditions aren't so great. Real dry and cold trees, etc. Trees the easy coons no problem! No white on chest. The only negative trait I found is both her parents are dual grands and she is a little coarse haired but lately ive noticed its falling out. She has nice feet and comformation so she might make a show dog yet. I don't know anything about breeding dogs and would only breed her if I wanted a pup for myself and knew I could sell the pups. I want to break her out at autumn oaks if I feel she's ready!

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Registered: May 2005
Location: Pinconning,Mi
Posts: 1323

mr. dean has been family breeding for 26 generations and no doubt the most success of any breed in the the coonhound world

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Steve Beson
Pinconning MI

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Registered: Mar 2010
Location: Georgia
Posts: 29

paul i asked the same question a while back and you got more than me. read larry a's reply about the different types of breeding and what their progresses are, cause he is 100 percent right. i just got started to and this is what im doing. i got a male and female that have the same father but different moms. the dad is 'jones raisin cane'. im going to breed the two together and which ever dog is the best im going to breed the best pup back to them. then take a pup of that mating and breed back to the best dog again. this will be 7/8 best dog and 1/8 other dog. i may try it again to make it 15/16 but no more than that. then i would breed this good dog over the original dog that ant the best just to add 'new blood' so i can keep vigor. then linebreed back to the 15/16 dog. either way you going to have to know the meaning and progresses of all breedings cause if you going to do it a while you will have to use eveyone of them. just be sure to select the best and get rid of the rest and you will do fine. good luck and thanks to everyone helping us rookies out.

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